Forums

AlphaZero: Will People Treat Chess the Way they Treat Tic-Tac-Toe?

Sort:
RaevynnIsCool

Hewwo im not new but hewwo!!!!!

RaevynnIsCool
SeniorPatzer wrote:
Martin_Stahl wrote:

No, it is trivially easy for a human to learn perfect play on tic-tac-toe. Not so with chess. For the vast majority of players, they will never get close to a perfect level of play or perfect recall so the game will still be able to challenge the vast majority of players (and probably all players even).

 

Of course, chess will be a challenge to *everyone*.  The question really is, Do people want to take up a challenge when it's been solved or conquered by computers?  Of course, some people will.  So then, the real question is, "Will interest in chess dwindle *significantly* as a result of AlphaZero?"

 

Now one answer could be, "Nah, interest in chess didn't dwindle significantly when Deep Blue defeated World Champion Garry Kasparov, did it?  In fact, it increased!  So why would AlphaZero's triumph cause interest in chess to decrease?"

 

I don't know.  That's a valid response.

 

Girthquake6
Chess is dead
haha331
Hi
haha331
ROSAL3893P-Hewwo I’m not new but Hewwo. haha331-It’s Hello not Hewwo
RaevynnIsCool
ROSAL3893P wrote:
falconwad wrote:
Chess is dead. But why?

 

 

RaevynnIsCool
haha331 wrote:
ROSAL3893P-Hewwo I’m not new but Hewwo. haha331-It’s Hello not Hewwo.
ROSAL3893P-I can say however I want okay ya can't judge me!  

 

RaevynnIsCool

Hii! happy.png

alpha_zer000

....

haha331

I was not judgeing you

alpha_zer000

._.

haha331

O-O 

CorporateChessGuy


Hello Everyone!

We have Chess Diaries With 44th GM of India Mr GM Priyadharshan K!
He Share his journey from Novice to FM to IM then the Ultimatum i.e GM Title
and also shares chess knowledge with all the people of different age categories too who wants to improve chess.Ask your questions to GM in our stream.Dont miss the chance to do it.
Make sure you are available on 8th August, 7PM IST .

(Below link for Detail Description)
https://www.chess.com/news/view/chess-diaries-with-gm-priyadharshan-k

Join us for Free-Live Session to play vote-chess vs GM Priyadharshan K and get a chance to interact with the GM !!!

CHECK OUT our stream with @aspired to know about his journey to becoming a Grandmaster !!!

To enjoy the show, tune in to our stream on 8th August at 7 PM IST.

Watch Us LIVE Here:

https://www.youtube.com/c/corporatechessindia

Join our Chess-Club : https://www.chess.com/club/corporate-chess-india

Da-Vere

SeniorPatzer has a valid point, well worth discussing. Remember when Rubik’s Cube was all the rage? Seems like everyone had one, desperately working the skin off their thumbs trying to “solve” the multi-colored demon. Then came competition and tournaments where youngsters, hopped up on one too many Mountain Dews, began to find the task all too easy and smacked the cube down in nano-seconds. Now? Who really cares? It’s been proven to be “beatable.” Sure, it’s amusing to try it out when you’re waiting at the doctor’s office, or at the Dept. of Motor Vehicles for your appointment, but it seems to now be viewed by many with a Tic-Tac-Toe shrug of the shoulders. 

Personally i believe chess will continue to exist, with rule changes along the way and be quite popular. Maybe they should try changing the Rubik’s Cube rules, say... one handed, blind folded, or all black or white colors perhaps?

RaevynnIsCool

Hey! :3

chesschesskid

i used to play tic tac toe a LOT back when i was like 5 it was fun for me, i learned tricks and stuff

But eventually me and my friends got to good at it and kept drawing. So i did some research and figured out that with best play tic tac toe is a draw and its really ez to learn how to do best play

For chess its not it has so many more possible positions and moves thats what keeps me intrested in it

EnCroissantCheckmate
SeniorPatzer wrote:

Chess aficionados have been bombarded (and rightfully so) by the news of AlphaZero teaching itself in a matter of hours to destroy StockFish.  Regardless of whether it was a Google publicity stunt, we still have GM's utterly stunned and in awe of AlphaZero's moves.  (Eg., GM Peter Svidler and GM Alex Colovic).

 

Possible Downline Consequence or Implication of this:  Will people treat chess like the way they treat tic-tac-toe?  In other words, is this the "death" of chess?

 

All analogies are imperfect.  Given that proviso, people treat tic-tac-toe with a mild amusement.  Fun for playing with young children and teaching them to think and visualize in advance.  And then seeing them learn with perfect play that the 2nd player can always get a draw, i.e., "Cat's Game."

 

And so, Tic-Tac-Toe, while not technically dead, is relegated with a shrug of the shoulders to a child's amusement *because it has been solved with best play*, and unworthy to spend much more time on it.

 

The question then becomes, will chess follow the same fate, albeit inexorably slower, as tic-tac-toe?  Imagine if you will a conversation between a skeptical Chess Parent and Chess Son/Daughter:

 

Son:  "Mom, Dad, I won a chess tournament, and got a chess trophy!!  I love studying and playing chess.  Spending a couple of hours a day on chess has paid off!"

 

Parent:  "Congratulations Son!  That's really nice.  But I have to have a heart-to-heart with you even though you're happy and I'm happy for you.  You see, even the best grandmasters in the world are patzers compared to Chess Programs and Chess Engines.   Humans will never beat computers.  And it's just about solved."

 

Son:  "What do you mean "solved"?"

 

Parent:  "Remember tic-tac-toe?  Where with best play it's always a "Cat's Game"?  Same thing with chess.  Best play is a draw.  Look at the recent London Chess Classic.  Vast majority of games are draws."

 

Son:  "So what are you really saying?"

 

Parent:  "Uhh, I want you to enjoy what you enjoy, and perhaps you might want to enjoy studying, learning, training in something that has a future, a career, has some money potential in it, ya know?"

 

Next day.  Son says:  "Fug."

 

Parent:  "What?"

 

Son:  "There's a girl at school I really like.  And she walked by me while I was hunched over a chess board.  And she said, 'Ya know, chess is dead.  Haven't you heard of a program called AlphaZero?  Why are you wasting time on that game?"

 

Parent:  "But, but, but, look at all the benefits of chess!  You learn Concentration, Patience, Calculation, Visualization, Consequences of Decisions, Planning, Decision-making, Decision-Making under Time Pressure!"

 

Son:  "Yeah.  But I could learn all that learning to be a chef.  Look at all those Food Network shows that mom watches!  Like Chopped and Iron Chef.  They're all timed competitions.  And they gotta concentrate and make decisions under time pressure too!"

 

And afterwards, the chess set was placed on the game shelves next to the game of "Sorry!" and only to be taken out on rare occasion.

 

 

 

 

Tic-Tac-Toe: 255268 possible games

Chess: 10^120 possible games

Chess will not get solved anytime soon. Even if it does, even the best GMs will not be able to play a 100% perfect game.

RaevynnIsCool
KnightAttack1567 wrote:
SeniorPatzer wrote:

Chess aficionados have been bombarded (and rightfully so) by the news of AlphaZero teaching itself in a matter of hours to destroy StockFish.  Regardless of whether it was a Google publicity stunt, we still have GM's utterly stunned and in awe of AlphaZero's moves.  (Eg., GM Peter Svidler and GM Alex Colovic).

 

Possible Downline Consequence or Implication of this:  Will people treat chess like the way they treat tic-tac-toe?  In other words, is this the "death" of chess?

 

All analogies are imperfect.  Given that proviso, people treat tic-tac-toe with a mild amusement.  Fun for playing with young children and teaching them to think and visualize in advance.  And then seeing them learn with perfect play that the 2nd player can always get a draw, i.e., "Cat's Game."

 

And so, Tic-Tac-Toe, while not technically dead, is relegated with a shrug of the shoulders to a child's amusement *because it has been solved with best play*, and unworthy to spend much more time on it.

 

The question then becomes, will chess follow the same fate, albeit inexorably slower, as tic-tac-toe?  Imagine if you will a conversation between a skeptical Chess Parent and Chess Son/Daughter:

 

Son:  "Mom, Dad, I won a chess tournament, and got a chess trophy!!  I love studying and playing chess.  Spending a couple of hours a day on chess has paid off!"

 

Parents:  "Congratulations Son!  That's really nice.  But I have to have a heart-to-heart with you even though you're happy and I'm happy for you.  You see, even the best grandmasters in the world are patzers compared to Chess Programs and Chess Engines.   Humans will never beat computers.  And it's just about solved."

 

Son:  "What do you mean "solved"?"

 

Parents:  "Remember tic-tac-toe?  Where with best play it's always a "Cat's Game"?  Same thing with chess.  Best play is a draw.  Look at the recent London Chess Classic.  Vast majority of games are draws."

 

Son:  "So what are you really saying?"

 

Parent:  "Uhh, I want you to enjoy what you enjoy, and perhaps you might want to enjoy studying, learning, training in something that has a future, a career, has some money potential in it, ya know?"

 

Next day.  Son says:  "Fug."

 

Parent:  "What?"

 

Son:  "There's a girl at school I really like.  And she walked by me while I was hunched over a chess board.  And she said, 'Ya know, chess is dead.  Haven't you heard of a program called AlphaZero?  Why are you wasting time on that game?"

 

Parent:  "But, but, but, look at all the benefits of chess!  You learn Concentration, Patience, Calculation, Visualization, Consequences of Decisions, Planning, Decision-making, Decision-Making under Time Pressure!"

 

Son:  "Yeah.  But I could learn all that learning to be a chef.  Look at all those Food Network shows that mom watches!  Like Chopped and Iron Chef.  They're all timed competitions.  And they gotta concentrate and make decisions under time pressure too!"

 

And afterwards, the chess set was placed on the game shelves next to the game of "Sorry!" and only to be taken out on rare occasion.

 

 

 

 

Tic-Tac-Toe: 255268 possible games

Chess: 10^120 possible games

Chess will not get solved anytime soon. Even if it does, even the best GMs will not be able to play a 100% perfect game.

 

ponz111

Well except at the highest levels of correspondence chess--players are now playing games with no errors.

So at this very highest level--chess might die out but this still leaves 99.9% of the players to enjoy chess.

GM_Alphazer0
Not me