Havana chess set id/photos?

Howdy folks.

I have spotted a very interesting-looking set in one of the photographs from this thread:

https://www.chess.com/forum/view/community/chess-sets-used-in-both-unofficial-and-official-world-championships?page=1

The photo is listed under the Havana 1921 header, however, is we inspect the other photos from the 1921 match in the same thread, it seems that the gentlemen (whoever they may be lol) are using a different set in the match (e.g the bishops in other photos are definitely more rounded; king & queen shape seems different, pawn bases don't appear to be the same either).

Would anyone have any further info on the set pictured below? More photos? I am picking which set to make when I'm done with my dubrovnik, and this one has caught my attention.

Thank you.

The picture has nothing to do with Havana, but was taken in Germany when Capablanca was playing against German publisher and chess promoter Bernhard Kagan. Here is the full picture showing Kagan on the left (and no, this is not Lasker!).

The chess set used is a so called "onion top" chess set, a typical chess set pattern from the south of Germany. Chessbazaar is selling these as being of Austrian origin, but I think this is not correct. The term "onion top" was coined by Nicholas Lanier on his chessmuseum website, because the top of the king has an onion shape and reminds of the onion top roofs often seen on churches in South Germany.

Sets like these came in different types. Here is one pretty similar to the set seen on the picture with wooden knights. The second picture is showing the same type of set with a knight made of cellulose, i.e. an early form of plastic.

Fantastic, thank you very much!

What is the typical height of the king and the base diameter/intended square size?

That's a very good looking set. Added to the todo list.

The king height is typically between 4" and 4.5", sometimes a bit more or less. My sets for example are 3.9" (first picture) and 4.6" (second picture). However, I have not measured the base diameter.

It's actually an Austrian set and not a Havana set.

Buy 19th Century Antique Austrian Series Chess Pieces in Ebonized Boxwood Online (chessbazaar.com)

I believe the Austrian origin is correct. The Bishop also shows a close design relationship to Czech Bishop design. Germany, Austria, and used to be Czechoslovakia are all close central/southern European countries. The Queen's crown is similar to the Queen from the Vienna Coffeehouse set. Smaller top but non the less has that German/Austrian UFO crown on the Queens. 

@KnightsForkCafe - I appreciate your view and I was wondering myself, inter alia about the bishop. But in particular the bishop is in my view a reason to believe it is not Austrian. The very pointed shape of the bishops' head is indeed also to be found in some Czech sets, but the simple fact that Czechoslovakia and Austria were closely connected does not make the onion top set Austrian. One very characteristic feature in Czech and Austrian sets is that the bishops have heads or finials in the opposite colour. I have hardly seen an Austrian set without this particular feature and I have literally never seen a Czech set without it.

Also, the UFO crown on the Queens, as you described it, is by no means a feature only seen in Austrian sets. You can see the very same in German sets as well. Take a view, for example, at these sets, which are definitely of German origin. The second one is my Augustea reproduction shown in the 1885 catalogue of Adolf Roegner, who was based in Leipzig.

So even though I do not deny that the points you made have some merit, I still think that the more convincing arguments point towards Germany. In fact, Chessbazaar seems to be the only site claiming it is Austrian, however, without specifying how they know or how they came to this conclusion.

In addition to the above, I might add a couple of more arguments:

• Nicholas Lanier himself also assumes these sets are of German origin.
• I do know the Austrian Biedermeier and Coffee House pieces, but I am not aware of a particular Austrian Staunton style. In fact, pieces in the Coffee House pattern remained popular in Austria for the better part of the 20th century.
• As mentioned above, onion tops are a feature also seen in architecture, in particular in that of churches. Churches with onion top roofs are predominantly found in the South of Germany, while there are only a few examples in the Austrian regions bordering Germany.
• Kings' crowns with a more rounded shape, to which I also count the onion tops, are a typical feature of German Staunton sets, as shown above.
• The picture of Capablanca and Kagan above is one of the rare pictures showing this type of chessmen. As far as I know, it was taken in Germany, not Austria, with Kagan being a German player.

There was a member who did a photo review of the set CB sells. The guy who made the review seems to have great knowledge of various chess sets and there origins.

Chess Bazaar's 19th Century Austrian "Onion Top" Set--A Photo Review - Chess Forums - Chess.com

Neighboring countries will share similar set designs. One in particular is Old Vienna Coffeehouse and Czech Fidet set. Same style just two different countries where the sets were made.

Coffeehouse set

Czech Fidet set

Extremely similar but two different countries. I wouldn't get hung up on the Bishop design. Onion tops are a common Bishop design from Russia and various Eastern and Central European countries. Maybe the onion top isn't an actual Austrian design but rather an influence to incorporate into a set made in Austria. Since Austria and Germany are next door neighbors that share the same language. It really isn't that much of a stretch for a German chess player to own an Austrian chess set. 

The guy who made the review is my friend Chuck and his review includes one reference to a country, which is the photo reference to the church tower of the Frauenkirche in Munich. He wrote: "Onion Top churches dot the landscape of Bavaria." - Bavaria is Germany, just saying.

Don't forget that Bohemia was part of the Habsburg monarchy, i.e. Bohemia and mainland Austria were literally one country until the end of WWI. All over the country the same style of coffee house sets were used (in the above example with the exception of the knight, which resembles a Czech knight), even after Bohuslav Schnirch came up with the specific Czech chessmen design some time in the 1880's. It only shows that design ideas and features do not stop at man made borders, but have an influence on neighbouring regions as well. I am not doubting that. But a vague influence is not enough to explain the origin of a set, when everything else points to another origin IMHO.

Bavaria region covers southeastern Germany and western Austria. I really don't want to split hairs about the topic. Whether it is from Germany or Austria. I believe that the origin of this set resides within the area of Germany/Austria. Just like with the German Knubbel set. Some believe that it is a Danish set but others believe it is a German set. I go with the original origin stated until someone shows actual documented evidence that proves otherwise. I even made a set that has several other set influence. So it really isn't a stretch to say that an Austrian set maker didn't get inspired to make a similar Bishop design. Anyways here's my custom set.

It's all EU these days, chaps

That Bavaria covers western Austria is new to me and I think the last time this was true was 1816 following the Vienna Congress, when Bavaria exchanged territories in Tyrol against territories closer to the Rhine, in any case long before the chessmen in question here were made. But let's not fight about this! I think we can agree to your statement that it is from the area of Germany/Austria. I am just having difficulties when someone like Chessbazaar claims an origin without giving any explanation let alone evidence and this is treated as fact unless someone proves a different origin, just because they were the first to allege something. And it wouldn't be the first thing they got wrong. Anyway, I am not here to fight, so I'll rest my case.

The Knubbel is indeed another mystery. I do think it is German, but I have not seen evidence for that either (while I have seen evidence for these sets having been produced in Denmark). I think it is likely that it was invented in the Erzgebirge or Nuremberg region in Germany, but it became popular only on Denmark and established itself there as an autonomous design.

Your custom set is beautiful, congratulations!

...says the guy who has the UK flag in his status! I wish you guys still were!

So do I. Up here in Scotland leaving was not a very popular decision.

But let's stick to chess Thank you very much for the information about the set.

I thought this auction looked familiar! Hah.

6 days to go and sky's the limit.

37 bids. 40 watchers. Wooooo!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/265133852961?hash=item3dbb358921

The seller is from the South of Germany and seems to be selling off his nice collection. I have bought from him in the past, very good transaction. He is mainly concentrating on South German and Austrian sets.

I think this will go for a lot more than I'm prepared to pay for it, but the close-up photos are priceless for making a [weighted] reproduction.

Aren't the pieces very crowded on such a small board?

I have several of these sets, so if you need anything in particular picture wise, let me know.