Forums

Havana chess set id/photos?

Sort:
EfimLG47
M_Chavez hat geschrieben:

Aren't the pieces very crowded on such a small board?

Yes, the board is a bit too small for the set.

M_Chavez

Thanks. I am still [very] slowly making my way through the dubrovnik, and then I'm torn between the Tal set and this one. Thankfully, plenty of wood to work with - just not enough time.

lighthouse
EfimLG47 wrote:

@KnightsForkCafe - I appreciate your view and I was wondering myself, inter alia about the bishop. But in particular the bishop is in my view a reason to believe it is not Austrian. The very pointed shape of the bishops' head is indeed also to be found in some Czech sets, but the simple fact that Czechoslovakia and Austria were closely connected does not make the onion top set Austrian. One very characteristic feature in Czech and Austrian sets is that the bishops have heads or finials in the opposite colour. I have hardly seen an Austrian set without this particular feature and I have literally never seen a Czech set without it.

Also, the UFO crown on the Queens, as you described it, is by no means a feature only seen in Austrian sets. You can see the very same in German sets as well. Take a view, for example, at these sets, which are definitely of German origin. The second one is my Augustea reproduction shown in the 1885 catalogue of Adolf Roegner, who was based in Leipzig.

So even though I do not deny that the points you made have some merit, I still think that the more convincing arguments point towards Germany. In fact, Chessbazaar seems to be the only site claiming it is Austrian, however, without specifying how they know or how they came to this conclusion.

In addition to the above, I might add a couple of more arguments:

  • Nicholas Lanier himself also assumes these sets are of German origin.
  • I do know the Austrian Biedermeier and Coffee House pieces, but I am not aware of a particular Austrian Staunton style. In fact, pieces in the Coffee House pattern remained popular in Austria for the better part of the 20th century.
  • As mentioned above, onion tops are a feature also seen in architecture, in particular in that of churches. Churches with onion top roofs are predominantly found in the South of Germany, while there are only a few examples in the Austrian regions bordering Germany.
  • Kings' crowns with a more rounded shape, to which I also count the onion tops, are a typical feature of German Staunton sets, as shown above.
  • The picture of Capablanca and Kagan above is one of the rare pictures showing this type of chessmen. As far as I know, it was taken in Germany, not Austria, with Kagan being a German player.

This is such a beauty , one of the nicer German sets & rare wink.png

crusaderwabbet

I agree. That is a beautiful set. 

WandelKoningin
EfimLG47 wrote:

The picture has nothing to do with Havana, but was taken in Germany when Capablanca was playing against German publisher and chess promoter Bernhard Kagan. Here is the full picture showing Kagan on the left (and no, this is not Lasker!).

The chess set used is a so called "onion top" chess set, a typical chess set pattern from the south of Germany. Chessbazaar is selling these as being of Austrian origin, but I think this is not correct. The term "onion top" was coined by Nicholas Lanier on his chessmuseum website, because the top of the king has an onion shape and reminds of the onion top roofs often seen on churches in South Germany.

Sets like these came in different types. Here is one pretty similar to the set seen on the picture with wooden knights. The second picture is showing the same type of set with a knight made of cellulose, i.e. an early form of plastic.

From what year is this photo? And any idea where they are playing the game?

mjeman

Here https://www.chesshistory.com/winter/extra/mistakenidentity.html Edward Winter mentions the photo came from his book https://www.google.com/books/edition/Capablanca/qJkNAAAAYAAJ?hl=en. It doesn't say whether the book provides background information, but since you say your wife loves Capa, perhaps she already has, or should have wink, a copy of the book. If it doesn't give more information, it might provide other ideas for your Capa-related pieces quest. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0786466340/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1

WandelKoningin
mjeman wrote:

Here https://www.chesshistory.com/winter/extra/mistakenidentity.html Edward Winter mentions the photo came from his book https://www.google.com/books/edition/Capablanca/qJkNAAAAYAAJ?hl=en. It doesn't say whether the book provides background information, but since you say your wife loves Capa, perhaps she already has, or should have , a copy of the book. If it doesn't give more information, it might provide other ideas for your Capa-related pieces quest. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0786466340/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1

Oh I actually don’t even know what books she has beyond learning chess. I should check if she has any books on Capa’s life and tournaments, and get the book you mentioned if she doesn’t have it yet. Thank you!

EfimLG47
WandelKoningin wrote:

From what year is this photo? And any idea where they are playing the game?

Kagan and Capablanca had a close relationship and Capablanca was visiting him quite frequently. In 1915, Kagan was publishing a book with 20 matches of Capablanca from his European tour in 1913/1914. In the book itself, Kagan stated "von ihm selbst glossiert und mit Erlaubnis des Meisters herausgegeben", which translates to "commented by himself and published with the master's permission". It indicates that Kagan was already working closely with Capablanca. The book was originally published by Kagan's publishing house in Berlin in 1915.

It seems that after WWI, Kagan and Capablanca re-established and maintained their close relationship. Vol. 6 (1926), issue no. 1 of Kagans Neueste Schachnachrichten (engl. Kagan's Latest Chess News) included a report titled "Capablanca in Berlin" together with the below picture showing again Kagan and Capablanca playing chess. It seems to be the same set, so my assumption is that both pictures were taken in Kagan's office in Berlin in 1925 or 1926.

WandelKoningin
EfimLG47 wrote:
WandelKoningin wrote:

From what year is this photo? And any idea where they are playing the game?

Kagan and Capablanca had a close relationship and Capablanca was visiting him quite frequently. In 1915, Kagan was publishing a book with 20 matches of Capablanca from his European tour in 1913/1914. In the book itself, Kagan stated "von ihm selbst glossiert und mit Erlaubnis des Meisters herausgegeben", which translates to "commented by himself and published with the master's permission". It indicates that Kagan was already working closely with Capablanca. The book was originally published by Kagan's publishing house in Berlin in 1915.

It seems that after WWI, Kagan and Capablanca re-established and maintained their close relationship. Vol. 6 (1926), issue no. 1 of Kagans Neueste Schachnachrichten (engl. Kagan's Latest Chess News) included a report titled "Capablanca in Berlin" together with the below picture showing again Kagan and Capablanca playing chess. It seems to be the same set, so my assumption is that both pictures were taken in Kagan's office in Berlin in 1925 or 1926.

Thank you so much!

I’m curious, are there no known makers of onion top chess sets? And do we know when they first appeared?

Which reminds me, I still have to get your book!

EfimLG47
WandelKoningin wrote:

I’m curious, are there no known makers of onion top chess sets? And do we know when they first appeared?

These onion top chess sets are really a bit of a miracle. Should I have more time one day, I might try to do some research on them. Initially, they were described as Austrian sets. But I have yet to see evidence for this claim. To me they look more South German in style. But so far I could not find any evidence for that either.