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Anti-Fried Liver Defense? Why?

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TheReal6hess

Not 

-Why is it name that? That's obvious

but

WHY DO 99/100 PEOPLE PLAY THIS? I'm not even kidding about that. Every time I play the Italian Game, I'm faced with this. It's a tempo-losing move, and if they would just take the time to learn how to counter the Fried Liver, this wouldn't even be a problem. I go into a game wanting to play some good gambits, and they respond with the passive move 3. h6. Also consider the fact that the opponents I play are higher than 1400 rated. No one plays Fried Liver up here...

GodsPawn2016
TheReal6hess wrote:

Not 

-Why is it name that? That's obvious

but

WHY DO 99/100 PEOPLE PLAY THIS? I'm not even kidding about that. Every time I play the Italian Game, I'm faced with this. It's a tempo-losing move, and if they would just take the time to learn how to counter the Fried Liver, this wouldn't even be a problem. I go into a game wanting to play some good gambits, and they respond with the passive move 3. h6. Also consider the fact that the opponents I play are higher than 1400 rated. No one plays Fried Liver up here...

Your opponents arent required to play the moves you want them to play.  

advancededitingtool1
Who the hell is he talking with anyway
TheReal6hess
GodsPawn2016 wrote:
TheReal6hess wrote:

Not 

-Why is it name that? That's obvious

but

WHY DO 99/100 PEOPLE PLAY THIS? I'm not even kidding about that. Every time I play the Italian Game, I'm faced with this. It's a tempo-losing move, and if they would just take the time to learn how to counter the Fried Liver, this wouldn't even be a problem. I go into a game wanting to play some good gambits, and they respond with the passive move 3. h6. Also consider the fact that the opponents I play are higher than 1400 rated. No one plays Fried Liver up here...

Your opponents arent required to play the moves you want them to play.  

What I mean is why does everyone play it even at a semi-upper level?

advancededitingtool1
nyku13

Well, I think that your opponents may be defensive players so it is natural for them to play anti - fried liver. Also they may be preventing some nasty Ng5 moves later on and also if they were to castle king-side it will also be an escape square for the king. You may find this useful -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWSHiSRnX-4

advancededitingtool1

I think that the word scam is very appropriate, don't you think, instead of the given name

xman720

I know you shouldn't play hope chess, but I actually play Nf6 hoping for Ng5. Then I get games like this where I'm not always objectively winning but I get all the fun and all the easy play.

GreenCastleBlock
leklerk1 wrote:
Who the hell is he talking with anyway

 

He's trying to start a thread about 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 h6.  Too bad you aren't interested in the subject, rather each new thread is an opportunity for you to practice your diagram posting skills with completely unrelated sequences of moves...

SmithyQ

If you want to play gambits, then you should love seeing 3...h6 as White.  You now have every reason in the world to play d4 exd4 and c3, opening the position.  You can castle in one move; it will take Black at least three.  The centre will open, you have easy development, and if Black ever does castle then you have sacrificial options on h6 as well.  White's not winning, but he certainly has the much easier position in such gambit lines.

Also, not every h6 move is designed to prevent Ng5.  I've helped analyze games with weaker players, and one person said he always plays h6 before playing Nf6 to prevent the pin Bg5.  True, it's not possible in the current position, but that's often the thought process.

xman720
SmithyQ wrote:

Also, not every h6 move is designed to prevent Ng5.  I've helped analyze games with weaker players, and one person said he always plays h6 before playing Nf6 to prevent the pin Bg5.  True, it's not possible in the current position, but that's often the thought process.

This is theoretically possible but a lot of people play 3: ...h6 specifically to avoid 4: Ng5 because that's what Mike Kummer says to do.

xman720

When I was rated 1100, this is how I would play every game as black:

Eventually, I asked stockfish and it suggested I play 4: ...d5
TheReal6hess

I'm not sure anyone gets the point.

What I mean is, why are people that are decently rated play this? 

 

Also, I usually play the Traxler if someone tries the Fried Liver on me.

GreenCastleBlock

As has been pointed out in similar threads, if Black plays 3...Nf6! and White plays the safe 4.d3 (instead of 4.Ng5 or 4.d4) then 4...h6 is actually a good move: it keeps White pieces off of g5 and prepares to set up a fianchetto defense (with ..g6, ..Bg7, ..d6 etc)

The problem is 3...h6? is just too slow.  After 4.d4 Black can't defend with 4...d6 because he is losing a pawn (dxe dxe Qxd8+ loses f7 or e5).  So Black has to abandon his foothold in the center with a move like ..dxe or ..Qe7.

advancededitingtool1

never played it, as White, not even while I was playing e4, I knew the trick, at some point, but essentially it's a form of trickery

Conquistador

Seeing this defense is always a blessing.  

One, it tells me that my opponent lacks confidence in defending an initiative properly so instead of dealing with the quick and violent one, they chose a defense which allows for a very long term initiative instead.  Sure I'll take that.

Two, it gives white a two tempo advantage to start.  This means that if black screws up at all, then I get to have at least three tempo to work with.  Three tempo is worth about a pawn in compensation so I get to play a pawn up essentially.  I would be very nearly winning playing gambit style without investing anything.  If I screw up, then it just returns back to at least a one tempo advantage so it would be my normal advantage anyways.  It's kind of difficult for black to win that type of game without quite a bit of help from the white player.

This type of defense leads to either a Philidor a tempo down if they play passive or they have to play very actively and correctly to justify the tempo loss.  I seriously doubt they had that in mind so it tends to lead to a game where I just steamroll opponent's with three moves in hand.  Either play the main lines or do not play 2...Nc6 at all if you have that much of an issue.  I really wonder how that type of player would deal with the Spanish with that type of inefficient play.

xman720

It's actually really easy to go wrong in the Italian game if you just spend every move trying to avoid gambits. After ...h6 and ...a6 by black, white is three tempi ahead and things are incredibly dangerous. This leads to one of my favorite opening traps in all of chess. I don't know a name for this trap because I discovered it myself, but I'm sure other people found it before. Does anybody know any database games with this opening trap?

Blainers10

COOL BEANS

Clavius

I was surprised to see a database showing 3...h6 in the Italian as the 5th most commonly played move.  I looked at some databases and followed a common line and then let Stockfish 8 play against itself to give a sense of a good way to combat this line. There is no forced win since the move is not terrible but white can keep expanding his initiative. 

 

gingerninja2003

you can't rely on the fried liver attack, when black plays this you get free development, the Italian game is not all about f7 it's about a good centre, when black plays a6 just develop with Nc3 and your winning the centre.