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Berlin equivalent for 1. d4

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GreenPheonix

What's the Berlin opening equivalent for 1. d4 for black? A super solid way to kill the game and secure / increase chances for a draw. (talking about a master or even grandmaster level where mistakes are much less common)

TomPetty

Semi-Tarrasch? There is a course about that on chessable, subtitles the Berlin of 1.d4. Personally I think there is no Berlin of 1.d4, 1.e4 has more forcing play than 1.d4

GreenPheonix
TomPetty wrote:

Semi-Tarrasch? There is a course about that on chessable, subtitles the Berlin of 1.d4. Personally I think there is no Berlin of 1.d4, 1.e4 has more forcing play than 1.d4

Really? I though Semi-Tarrasch was the opposite, very dynamic with lots of IQP positions? But an interesting course I wasn't aware of.

pcalugaru
GreenPheonix wrote:
TomPetty wrote:

Semi-Tarrasch? There is a course about that on chessable, subtitles the Berlin of 1.d4. Personally I think there is no Berlin of 1.d4, 1.e4 has more forcing play than 1.d4

Really? I though Semi-Tarrasch was the opposite, very dynamic with lots of IQP positions? But an interesting course I wasn't aware of.

Your thinking of the Tarrasch proper. The Semi Tarrasch avoids the dynamisms of an ICP position, takes the game straight into positional chess territory. People who love endgames, love to squeeze the opponent like it. Those who strive for a tactical game detest it, thinking it neuters the position of all tactics

ghostofmaroczy
pcalugaru wrote:

Your thinking of the Tarrasch proper. The Semi Tarrasch avoids the dynamisms of an ICP position

Baltic mainline involves queen exchange

JamesColeman

I can think of various 1.d4 openings that have the same sort of ethos: namely to take a solid but slightly inferior position as Black which is at least safe but with fewer (at least early on) winning chances

Bogo Indian with 4...Bxd2+ and ...d5 (as played by Carlsen many times in his career)

Queen's Gambit Declined Exch Var starting with: 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bg5 c6 6. e3 Bf5 7. Qf3 Bg6 where Black takes the bishop pair and doubled f-pawns: played many times by Kramnik, So, Andreikin, Short, among others. (admittedly you can only play this if white plays exchange variation)

vs QGD mainline with Bg5 then Lasker variation has always been super solid and relaible.

Semi-Tarrasch as mentioned in particular this line being quite reminsicemnt of the Berlin: 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 d5 4. Nc3 c5 5. cxd5 cxd4 6. Qxd4 exd5 7. e4 dxe4 8. Qxd8+ Kxd8 9. Ng5 Be6 (as played by Carlsen as black on various occasions)

There's also a line in the Semi-Slav Meran where Black sacrifices a pawn and gets a somewhat dry position but with the bishop pair and some compensation but it's probably only good enough to just about give equality.

In general though I feel it's harder to rely on any single one of these than the Berlin as in a lot of cases you're getting the line in later and/or in some of them there's more careful handling required (at least in the Berlin endgame you're structurally solid) but I have played the first one on my list (the Bogo) quite a lot when I've wanted a solid game, even though white can obviously take the game in a different direction by playing 3.Nc3 and not allowing it.

ibrust

Agreed semi-tarrasch is really the closest thing. And a very good opening. Though you'll still need something against the QGD modern / Catalan but that's fine.

You can play the mainline semi-tarrasch (not reached via QGD exchange) in either a drawish way or a dynamic way, there are 3 viable mainline variations you can choose from. For the dynamic option you can also couple it with the Tarrasch. I played that repertoire for a while and it was quite good. But the drawish version, after the QGD exchange, just trades off everything real fast and... white has some pressure but not many pieces and you can study the lines very carefully.

GreenPheonix
JamesColeman wrote:

I can think of various 1.d4 openings that have the same sort of ethos: namely to take a solid but slightly inferior position as Black which is at least safe but with fewer (at least early on) winning chances

Bogo Indian with 4...Bxd2+ and ...d5 (as played by Carlsen many times in his career)

Queen's Gambit Declined Exch Var starting with: 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bg5 c6 6. e3 Bf5 7. Qf3 Bg6 where Black takes the bishop pair and doubled f-pawns: played many times by Kramnik, So, Andreikin, Short, among others. (admittedly you can only play this if white plays exchange variation)

vs QGD mainline with Bg5 then Lasker variation has always been super solid and relaible.

Semi-Tarrasch as mentioned in particular this line being quite reminsicemnt of the Berlin: 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 d5 4. Nc3 c5 5. cxd5 cxd4 6. Qxd4 exd5 7. e4 dxe4 8. Qxd8+ Kxd8 9. Ng5 Be6 (as played by Carlsen as black on various occasions)

There's also a line in the Semi-Slav Meran where Black sacrifices a pawn and gets a somewhat dry position but with the bishop pair and some compensation but it's probably only good enough to just about give equality.

In general though I feel it's harder to rely on any single one of these than the Berlin as in a lot of cases you're getting the line in later and/or in some of them there's more careful handling required (at least in the Berlin endgame you're structurally solid) but I have played the first one on my list (the Bogo) quite a lot when I've wanted a solid game, even though white can obviously take the game in a different direction by playing 3.Nc3 and not allowing it.

What about the semi-slav in general, it seems to have a pretty high draw rate in the lichess masters database?

GreenPheonix

Also, since many people said semi-tarrasch, what do you guys think about this course on the semi-tarrasch: https://www.chessable.com/lifetime-repertoires-nimzo-semi-tarrasch-part-2/course/97476/. Which seems to be the best semi-tarrasch resource that I know of. Is this a solid / drawish repertoire or is the semi-tarrasch played here in a more dynamic / aggressive way? And what resources would you recommend to learn the semi-tarrasch in a super solid, kill the game, type of way?

MervynS

Maybe also the Queens Gambit Accepted. In all d4/c4 openings though one is going to have to ready against move orders that gets black into playing something more involved such as the Catalan. If you play 1...d5 some attention is needed against the London System as black can drift into trouble without realizing.

ibrust

In the video you posted he's playing the kill-the-game version but spicing it up.

Here's the kill-the-game version. Though note white still has pressure, you do need to study these lines carefully. These moves are mostly forced, with just a few notable deviations.... if you look at the masters database most games are draws -

From QGD exchange:

From mainline semi-tarrasch:

For the mainline semi-tarrassch there, while 5. cxd5 is the main line, white can play a few other moves as well:

The 5. e3 line is quite good for black though, almost an equal game but black is doing better than white in practice. I used to play 5... a6 here but that leads to an IQP. 5... cxd4 here will transpose with a line in the caro-kann panov, and 5... Nc6 is the symmetrical tarrasch, probably the most boring position if that's what you're after -

Then there's this transposition w/ the pillsbury variation of the tarrasch, again I don't consider this a very challenging line for black, infact the engine slightly prefers black here so really no big deal -

The dynamic versions I was talking about though are the alternatives to the main line where you trade down. These make more sense in a tarrasch repertoire:

divitrocks2012
JamesColeman
GreenPheonix wrote:
JamesColeman wrote:
 

What about the semi-slav in general, it seems to have a pretty high draw rate in the lichess masters database?

I don’t necessarily equate a high draw rate with dry positions, sometimes it’s just a reflection of super-sharp and popular positions being analysed to death by pros who have their whole lives to analyse openings and are able to remember and reproduce key engine moves in critical positions.

The semi Slav is a brilliant opening but i wouldn’t personally put it in the same category as those discussed above.

ThrillerFan

There really is no Berlin equivalent. Closest thing for Black would be Orthodox QGD. But even then, it's not about knowing miniscule inferiority in endgames like the Berlin is.