https://www.chess.com/blog/1cbb/the-father-of-a4
I ranked all 20 responses to e4 for black
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Jun 10, 2023
0
#664
Yerachmeal wrote:
A couple months ago I ranked all of white's moves in this forum here:https://www.chess.com/forum/view/chess-openings/i-ranked-all-20-first-moves-for-white?page=1 This time it's black that I'm ranking the moves for, in how they respond to e4. Just like my previous ranking, I did check the engine, and stats etc, but really since they all end in a draw if both players play right, it is mainly my opinion. (Experimenting with these moves caused my rating to go down by about 100).
#20: No name (b5):
Gives up a free pawn and lets white instantly develop its white squared bishop. The record isn’t nearly as good as it looks when you look at how well the continuations go. You open up room for your queenside bishop to develop, but you can make it a fianchetto and not lose a pawn by doing b6 instead.
#19 Duras Gambit (f5):
There’s little compensation for this gambit. It’s basically a worse version of the already bad King’s Gambit.
#18 Lemming Defense (Na6):
One of black’s advantages is that it gets to decide whether the game is a same side or opposite side castling game. That advantage gets squandered if white just takes the knight (which, for some reason, hasn't been done in the master games, and is why black does so well with it).
#17 Borg Defense (g5):
Most of the traps in the Grob attack don’t work with e4. This position is terrible, though I do feel from anecdotal awareness that white can still mess up here easier than the other 3. And there’s no free pawn.
#16 Ware Defense (a5):
It disposes of your choice on whether the game is same side or opposite side castling. In fact you can only castle properly on the kingside, so white now has that advantage, as well as a sizable lead in development and center control. You get…easier rook development, and more offense if white chooses to castle queenside, I guess? It does force a (semi) closed game though.
#15 Goldsmith Defense (h5):
Unlike Ware defense, this sort of capitalizes on your choice in castling, and forces a same sided catling game, though that's assuming both players castle. Unfortunately, you can’t make the game open without white’s approval, and you lag behind in center-control and development.
#14 St George Defense (a6)
You did get to decide that it’s a very closed game, but it literally just gives white full control of the center.
#13 Carr Defense (h6)
Same as St George defense, except this move at least prevents white from moving its knight or bishop to g5, which is an annoying spot. Also it can sort of lead to a spot similar to the French Defense, even though it’s really not as good.
# 12 Hippopotamus Defense (Nh6):
This opening does actually have some benefits, in letting the knights double attack a center pawn, or this knight aiding a future pawn, or even if it gets traded and cripples your kingside, this works as black because there’s something to attack. But it’s still passive, and will still probably have your kingside crippled.
#11 Barnes Defense (f6):
When played out right, it transitions into a variation of Ruy Lopez, which I’d say is better for white, but it’s still playable. Or you stick with the Barnes Defense, in the form of Fried Fox Defense. It’s so easy to blunder though…
#10 Scandinavian Defense (D5):
I’d say this is the 1st good move on this ranking. By the way this and the next 6 are all real close. The sad thing is that I was originally deciding between 2, 3, or 4. When white takes the pawn don’t recapture it, do Nc6 instead. White does have some tempting lines that actually favor black, hence why I thought I’d put it so high, but it also has several others that are better for white. It’s great against gullible players though.
#9 Owen’s Defense (b6)
You get a queen side fianchetto, and establish positive asymmetry, and you can also use this move to support a c5 advance. Don’t let its record fool you either, the following line (where white always does the most popular move at master level): 1e4 b6, 2d4 Bb7, 3Bd3 d6 has black winning 39% of the time while white wins a measly 17%. Since that is only based off of 18 master games though, it’s really not an overwhelming proof, and therefore has to wind up here even though I like it more than a few that I put higher. I definitely prefer it over its counter as white, b3, because it causes good asymmetry.
#8 Sicilian Defense (c5):
I really don’t agree with myself for putting it this high, but because of its stats, popularity, and engine placement, it wouldn’t be right to put it much lower. If white does b4 (which would be my choice, the wing gambit), Nc3, or Nf3 white is better, if not black is probably as good or better.
#7 Alekhine’s Defense (Nf6):
There’s simply too many easy mistakes for black to put this much higher, and because it was so close to the next ones that had to be the tie-breaker. If white does anything other than e5 the stats either favor black or are even. If white does e5, black’s knights wind up side-by-side on b6 and c6, indirectly controlling the center, and black can trade their less developed pieces white’s more developed pieces
#6 Nimzowitsch Defense (Nc6)
There aren't many options in this opening that aren’t better for white, but the ones that are good work very well.
#5 Pirc Defense (d3):
It transitions a couple positions usually reached by g6 or c6 that in my view favors black (as well as statistically). It also has several intimidating lines of its own. I feel like it’s a bit passive, but very playable.
#4 King’s pawn opening: (e5):
This is the easiest move to play, not the best one. Isn’t black supposed to be establishing asymmetry? And when white plays Nf3 next, Nc6 should lead into Ruy Lopez or Scotch Game, which are both way better for white. If you want to keep the game simple you should do this and go for maybe Petrov’s Defense or something.
#3 Caro-kann Defense (c6):
This move lets black establish asymmetry very fast, and equality is reached equally quick. It does block the knight, but it can go do d7 and support the knight on f6 instead. Its only real flaw is that white is now the one deciding whether the game is same side/opposite side castling, but neither side can get everything.
#2 Modern Defense (g6):
This allows a kingside fianchetto. It can go into the Neo modern, or even transpose into the Great snake variation of the English opening. Black is the one that decides most of this though, not white.
#1 French Defense (e6):
Symmetry is reached through the exchange variation, where white will have a hard time not avoiding passivity or zugzwang. The advance variation lets black do c5, so white’s best move is Nc3 where black can do whatever it wants.
I'm planning on ranking the responses to d4 next. Please let me know what your thoughts on this ranking are below.
exd5 then Nc6? Isnt there dxc6 that gives White material advantage? I usually presume the move is c6 to make White capture the pawn, followed by Nxc6
TheSampson wrote:
Ilampozhil25 wrote:
i am not sarcastic
there is no way you two are the same
i can get one, but two?
besides you both were on so close to each other that i cant believe one person switched accounts so easily
adding sampson to your thing doesnt mean you are sampson, bricks
besides bricks knows abt sampson so it isnt as far fletched as puffer/turtie; where puffer wouldve had to scroll a bit to see turtie (unless theyre the same, which im 99% sure on oh oops 99% means nothing march said so lol)
I was doing a bit of a social experiment to see what it’s like being on the minority of the argument and how easily angered people can be. It succeeded, long story short. All the games between TheSampson and ScrumptiousBricks were staged (and unrated so it didn’t break chess.com guidelines) as well as the little fights we had, like Bricks throwing a tantrum in the middle of the forums talking about how nobody wants to listen to Sampson.
PLOT TWIST OF THE CENTURY!
But fr what the helllll sampsonnnnnn 😔
Sampson, I hope you know that you are now officially a troll 💀
Noice
Jun 10, 2023
0
#668
The_Arrow_Of_Requiem wrote:
exd5 then Nc6? Isnt there dxc6 that gives White material advantage? I usually presume the move is c6 to make White capture the pawn, followed by Nxc6
It was a typo. Nf6 is what I meant.
Jun 10, 2023
0
#669
thankfully, you wont have to take sampson seriously as theyve left!
Oct 4, 2024
0
#671
Yerachmeal wrote:
#14 St George Defense (a6)
You did get to decide that it’s a very closed game, but it literally just gives white full control of the center.
Meanwhile you ranked the Modern as 2 and it also cedes the center... you're grasping at straws coming up with reasons, but it's obvious you just don't play the line or understand it.
#10 Scandinavian Defense (D5):
I’d say this is the 1st good move on this ranking. By the way this and the next 6 are all real close. The sad thing is that I was originally deciding between 2, 3, or 4. When white takes the pawn don’t recapture it, do Nc6 instead. White does have some tempting lines that actually favor black, hence why I thought I’d put it so high, but it also has several others that are better for white. It’s great against gullible players though.
You have very little substantive to say here. My advice would be that you refrain from drawing conclusions on openings before playing them. Scandi is far better than Owens - it's much harder to refute, the refutation of Owens isn't really that complex or difficult.
#9 Owen’s Defense (b6)
You get a queen side fianchetto, and establish positive asymmetry, and you can also use this move to support a c5 advance. Don’t let its record fool you either, the following line (where white always does the most popular move at master level): 1e4 b6, 2d4 Bb7, 3Bd3 d6 has black winning 39% of the time while white wins a measly 17%. Since that is only based off of 18 master games though, it’s really not an overwhelming proof, and therefore has to wind up here even though I like it more than a few that I put higher. I definitely prefer it over its counter as white, b3, because it causes good asymmetry.
#8 Sicilian Defense (c5):
I really don’t agree with myself for putting it this high, but because of its stats, popularity, and engine placement, it wouldn’t be right to put it much lower. If white does b4 (which would be my choice, the wing gambit), Nc3, or Nf3 white is better, if not black is probably as good or better.
The fact you put the Sicilian this low on the list lost you alot of credibility. You have have said almost nothing relevant about the Sicilian here that would prove you understand the opening.
#7 Alekhine’s Defense (Nf6):
There’s simply too many easy mistakes for black to put this much higher, and because it was so close to the next ones that had to be the tie-breaker. If white does anything other than e5 the stats either favor black or are even. If white does e5, black’s knights wind up side-by-side on b6 and c6, indirectly controlling the center, and black can trade their less developed pieces white’s more developed pieces
#6 Nimzowitsch Defense (Nc6)
There aren't many options in this opening that aren’t better for white, but the ones that are good work very well.
#5 Pirc Defense (d3):
It transitions a couple positions usually reached by g6 or c6 that in my view favors black (as well as statistically). It also has several intimidating lines of its own. I feel like it’s a bit passive, but very playable.
It practically transposes with the modern, but you've put the modern at number 2 and this at number 5. Very confusing. The Pirc isn't avoided because it's passive, it's avoided because it's dangerous when white pushes e5 at any moment. If you get past this phase of the game it's usually transposing with the modern...
#4 King’s pawn opening: (e5):
This is the easiest move to play, not the best one. Isn’t black supposed to be establishing asymmetry? And when white plays Nf3 next, Nc6 should lead into Ruy Lopez or Scotch Game, which are both way better for white. If you want to keep the game simple you should do this and go for maybe Petrov’s Defense or something.
Again you should just how little you understand chess. e4/e5 probably leads to the widest variety of pawn structures of any opening in all of chess. It's extremely complex... you can play badly, sure. I'm sure that you do. Also, the Scotch is very bad, and black makes alot of the decisions in the Ruy Lopez, its certainly not prohibitive for black to play. The biggest problem for black is the Italian, black can't do much to avoid it or steer the game in his direction. Generally I agree e4/e5 is good for white because white has alot of the ability to make decisions, and infact there's so much tactical variety that white can often take black down some obscure tactical line and just beat him through rote memorization. But it certainly isn't the Scotch that's the issue here. Also... the italian explodes in complexity, you can't even memorize the opening. Simple...? No. If you play some of the forcing lines it can be simple. That's white playing badly... simple for black is a good thing. What black really has to fear here are the piano and pianissimo italian. Or the bishops opening, or the vienna if played well.
#3 Caro-kann Defense (c6):
This move lets black establish asymmetry very fast, and equality is reached equally quick. It does block the knight, but it can go do d7 and support the knight on f6 instead. Its only real flaw is that white is now the one deciding whether the game is same side/opposite side castling, but neither side can get everything.
It's usually white the benefits from an asymmetrical game, not black. But the problem with this defense is, in addition to white choosing the variation, white has many strong attacking lines that put blacks king in great danger.
#2 Modern Defense (g6):
This allows a kingside fianchetto. It can go into the Neo modern, or even transpose into the Great snake variation of the English opening. Black is the one that decides most of this though, not white.
Black has a few decisions but white has tons of decisions as to what setup he wants to play as well. Black isn't restricting whites decisions in any sense.
#1 French Defense (e6):
Symmetry is reached through the exchange variation, where white will have a hard time not avoiding passivity or zugzwang. The advance variation lets black do c5, so white’s best move is Nc3 where black can do whatever it wants.
You said nothing about the two most theoretically significant variations, the tarrasch and the paulsen.
I'm planning on ranking the responses to d4 next. Please let me know what your thoughts on this ranking are below.
Overall you should probably wait until you understand the opening before you draw a bunch of solid conclusions about it.
Oct 5, 2024
0
#672
in no particular order within their tier.
A: 1.c5 and 1.e5. objectively great, and variation richest
B 1.e6 and 1.c6 objectively almost on par, but not as rich.
C: 1.d6/1.g6, 1.nf6 1.nc6 1.b6 1.d5 and depending on how its played 1.a6. objectively take longer to equalize and critical lines follow narrow paths.
D: the rest of the junk thats not F-tier. waste of time moves, or actively detrimental knight moves
F: 1.f5, 1.b5. Clear pawn down.
But this type of ranking has limitations, for example, i sometimes play 1.e5 but i strictly aim for either philidor or old steinitz/semi-italian with black which if compared to the list would be closer to C-tier instead of 1.e5 A-tier.
Unsurprisingly enough, people keep replying to this huge pile of dung one and a half year later.
Oct 5, 2024
0
#674
ibrust
I play the Scandi quite a lot, and I really love it, but there are way too many lines that white is the better side. Owen's is very asymmetrical which makes it easier to play for a win.
Black is attempting to attack white's center, with out having the slightest risk, is poised to castle kingside, but is flexible enough that he could choose to wait and potentially castle queenside and make the game even more dynamic.
The Pirc is more passive than the Modern because the only good follow up for black is to go into the Modern so it's silly to do this 1st. When the top 10 are all really close, subjective tie-breakers are more likely to happen.
E5 is to symmetrical here. When I mentioned Scotch or Ruby, I was referring to them as examples of positions where everything is equal except for 1 small advantage for white, so black can't really play for a win.
The main point with the Sicilian is that black needs to respond very differently to like a million different responses, and he still would be in an arguably worse position. White meanwhile is very flexible, and doesn't even need to know much theory to get a solid position. Even if white played 2.a4 the position would still be practically equal (not saying he should do this, just making a point).
1#caro and sicillian, its based on preferences
Oct 7, 2024
0
#676
Yerachmeal wrote:
ibrust
I play the Scandi quite a lot, and I really love it, but there are way too many lines that white is the better side. Owen's is very asymmetrical which makes it easier to play for a win.
Black is attempting to attack white's center, with out having the slightest risk, is poised to castle kingside, but is flexible enough that he could choose to wait and potentially castle queenside and make the game even more dynamic.
The Pirc is more passive than the Modern because the only good follow up for black is to go into the Modern so it's silly to do this 1st. When the top 10 are all really close, subjective tie-breakers are more likely to happen.
E5 is to symmetrical here. When I mentioned Scotch or Ruby, I was referring to them as examples of positions where everything is equal except for 1 small advantage for white, so black can't really play for a win.
The main point with the Sicilian is that black needs to respond very differently to like a million different responses, and he still would be in an arguably worse position. White meanwhile is very flexible, and doesn't even need to know much theory to get a solid position. Even if white played 2.a4 the position would still be practically equal (not saying he should do this, just making a point).
1) Pirc isn't passive compared with the modern, it's pointless. At least the 2. Nf6 > 3. g6 version of it. But from the Pirc going into the rats / maroczy defense or czech defense makes more sense than transposing into the modern, because you may have well just played the modern and avoided all the early e5 pushes that throw black into chaos / kept your options open. In practice the rats / maroczy defense is scoring well, and its objective eval is better than Nf6 / g6... it should probably be considered the main line at this point, it's underplayed.
2) E5 leads to some of the most complex / varied / asymmetric pawn structures in chess
3) I don't know how you were playing the Scandi, but depending on which version you choose it can be quite a complex dynamic position.
Instead of debating Scandi vs. Owens let's just look at the data. In the Owens position you posted, the mainline move 5 position, white has a 56% vs. 39% winrate on lichess at 2200+ elo. I refer to these winrates often, and I can tell you this is terrible. Usually the numbers are almost on par, with white having just a slight edge. In the Scandi, in contrast, there are some lines (such as the Portugese, 44% vs. 51%) where black is winning more games than white. Neither position is objectively good, but the Scandi is a massive opening and it takes quite alot of effort for white to learn counters to all the different variations black can enter... in Owens the game usually ends up in the setup you posted, white can just focus on countering that specific setup for the first couple moves, then just play chess in a better position.
The fact the Scandi is a huge opening with tons of different options is what makes it good, the biggest advantage black has in these openings is familiarity. So you want size and complexity.
4) Your point on the sicilian is complete nonsense. For one, black gets to choose the major variation and there are like 20 different sicilians he can choose from. So if black wants to avoid common theory that's very easy to do, black can play the sicilian however he wants... i.e. if black doesn't want to learn much anti-sicilian theory he can play a move-2 sicilian like the nimzowitsch or hyperaccelerated dragon and he's avoided most of them. But the fact black chooses the major variation puts a tremendous burden on white to know the theory. If white wants to sidestep the theory he must play an anti-sicilian, and at that point you're playing lines that are objectively almost equal if not equal... it's very hard to complain about this. The alapin is basically equal, and the smith morra is a joke. Obscure moves such as a3 or a4 as you mention can also be responded to on principle - it is not correct that moves such as these completely change the position... infact, if white plays a passive move one very easy response from black which doesn't require precise theory is to just play g6 and go into a dragon structure, your pieces are active and you can just play intuitively. The only really good anti-sicilians are the Closed and the Rossolimo, but e6 shuts down the Closed and the Rossolimo can basically be avoided unless you want to play Sveshnikov or Accelerated Dragon. Ultimately it's just very difficult to complain about the theory here when a) every E4 opening has tons of theory, b) in this case it's an objectively almost equal position... except for in the main open lines, but at that point it's black putting the burden on white to know the theory, not the reverse. c) these are positional lines, you don't always play them algorithmically, you often can play them based on ideas. There are many recurring ideas and patterns that occur throughout the various positions.
just play a response that you understand and doesn't give white an easy advantage, but don't play like a coward either.
Oct 7, 2024
0
#678
This in an example of how white can always get a Delayed Alapin type setup no matter what black does. The official name may change, but the type of position is always that type of idea.
Or white can always go for Bb5+ after d6 and c5 have both been played.
And after 2.f4
Add to that the wing gambit, which I think is really underrated. Black is not the one forcing white to know theory it's the other war around.
Oct 7, 2024
0
#679
Yerachmeal wrote:
This in an example of how white can always get a Delayed Alapin type setup no matter what black does. The official name may change, but the type of position is always that type of idea.
Or white can always go for Bb5+ after d6 and c5 have both been played.
And after 2.f4
Add to that the wing gambit, which I think is really underrated. Black is not the one forcing white to know theory it's the other war around.
You don't seem to be following the conversation and you're showing your further ignorance regarding the sicilian.
a) white cannot get a delayed alapin no matter what, this is nonsense. A delayed alapin is not reachable from 2... e6, or 2... Nc6, or 2... Nf6, only a regular alapin is. There is no meaningful distinction of delayed vs. standard alapin there. Black already faces these lines on move 2, so this is a pointless argument since he already plays them all. The delayed alapin as a distinct variation occurs after 2... d6.
And after 2... g6 if 3. c3 this is a line in the hyperaccelerated dragon, it's not an alapin.
The delayed alapin sucks. It is +0.00 and to counter it you just need to know to play Nf6 > castle before taking the pawn / if white plays Qc2 you play Qc7... and if white plays Bd3 you can pin the knight with Bg4, if white plays h3 you also have chances to play e5 and possibly d5. From there you can just play the position intuitively, it's objectively equal and patterns are going to be similar sicilian patterns, just without the edge for white.
b) As you can see the "refutation" of these anti-sicilian lines is often not sharp. Usually black just needs to know 6-8 moves, then black can just play chess. Black does not need 12 moves deep of theory to counter the delayed alapin. Against most anti-sicilians you can end up playing some familiar structure... dragon and taimanov setups are common, if you know those two lines you will know how to deal with most anti-sicilians.
c) you're addressing the wrong claim. I said that white is forced to know theory to contend with the mainline positions, what you've posted are sidelines.
The goal of theory is usually to equalize. In many mainline sicilian positions the theory goes 15-20 moves deep in an effort to equalize. In the anti-sicilians the theory ends earlier because it can, because at some point black can just start playing chess.
It is black who chooses the major variation in the sicilian, not white.
Regarding the mcdonnell defense... you just made moves for black that suck, they're not even the common moves.
The McDonnell is just a worse version of the Grand Prix, you should have just played the Grand Prix. There are many similar positional themes between these two openings, but in the case of the McDonnell black can play d5 immediately or e6>d5, same idea as in the Grand Prix but it comes faster. This is the error you make - you assume that black has to play algorithmically, no, if black understands the ideas in the opening he can counter these moves.
Wing gambits - white will probably have an experience edge but white is also down a pawn, black isn't really burdened with playing sharp lines where he risks anything, he can play defensive passive moves that are typical in the sicilian and the burden is on white to prove something.
Keep trying
I agree. The wing gambit is also good against the French but mostly as a blitz weapon
That makes sense...I rarely play with less than 10 minutes, but if I did I would play the wing gambit every time.