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I ranked all 20 responses to e4 for black

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TheSampson
AngryPuffer wrote:

sampson system collapses in e4 tho

that’s the gothammess system

Ethan_Brollier
angryspacevoid wrote:
AngryPuffer wrote:
PawnHurricanes wrote:
Sea_TurtIe wrote:

In the caro cant

  • white has a larger center with more/quicker development
  • white has a space advantage
  • white can easily hold an advantage the whole game
  • black is usually left passive
  • blacks light squared bishop is typically a liability and will be kicked around the whole opening/middlegame
  • the best black can play for is a draw

white can also easily attack black without having to risk much

(I'm responding to this and to anyone and any other posts outlining the negatives of the Caro)

For one, tell me those positions are easier to play for white honestly.

For two, the 1600+ lichess database for blitz and longer has white at 47% win rate and black with 48%. Practically, the Caro is on par or at least very, very similar in level to the Sicilian

dont give inferior lines for white

you guys are dumb smh this is why you actually understand the line

dxc5 is bad because of e6 Be3 Nd7

however c3 is the mainline and its kind of interesting

caro in general is hard to play for a win though white is often pressing in a lot of lines

If you wouldn’t mind clarifying, who exactly are you calling dumb in this scenario? I can’t tell. 
Actually, many of your comments are vague or incorrect . Who is dxc5 bad for? Black, presumably, but then you go on to argue that c3 is the mainline and is interesting. No it is not, first of all, it’s a distant third most common move and second, White scores horribly in it.

AngryPuffer

e6 is forced in dxc5 and is just a much worse french

if you dont try it asap, its usually +1.5 for white

AngryPuffer

and an easy win

Ilampozhil25

c3 Nc6 Nf3 Bg4

very good line

Refrigerator321
iceyww wrote:

The is my ranking of all the defenses against e4

20. B5

19. F6

18. Na6

17. G5

16. Nh6

15. F5

14. H5

13. A5

12. H6

11. A6

10. B6

9. Nf6

8. D5

7. Nc6

6. D6

5. G7

4. C6

3. E6

2. E5

1. C5

Perfect top four, I would just put scandi a bit higher and f5 a bit lower

Ethan_Brollier
angryspacevoid wrote:
Ethan_Brollier wrote:
angryspacevoid wrote:
AngryPuffer wrote:
PawnHurricanes wrote:
Sea_TurtIe wrote:

In the caro cant

  • white has a larger center with more/quicker development
  • white has a space advantage
  • white can easily hold an advantage the whole game
  • black is usually left passive
  • blacks light squared bishop is typically a liability and will be kicked around the whole opening/middlegame
  • the best black can play for is a draw

white can also easily attack black without having to risk much

(I'm responding to this and to anyone and any other posts outlining the negatives of the Caro)

For one, tell me those positions are easier to play for white honestly.

For two, the 1600+ lichess database for blitz and longer has white at 47% win rate and black with 48%. Practically, the Caro is on par or at least very, very similar in level to the Sicilian

dont give inferior lines for white

you guys are dumb smh this is why you actually understand the line

dxc5 is bad because of e6 Be3 Nd7

however c3 is the mainline and its kind of interesting

caro in general is hard to play for a win though white is often pressing in a lot of lines

If you wouldn’t mind clarifying, who exactly are you calling dumb in this scenario? I can’t tell. 
Actually, many of your comments are vague or incorrect . Who is dxc5 bad for? Black, presumably, but then you go on to argue that c3 is the mainline and is interesting. No it is not, first of all, it’s a distant third most common move and second, White scores horribly in it.

ok fine its bad for white ok Nf3 is another line i forgot however c3 is still better than dxc5 due to the line i mentioned above

Yeah I completely agree that 4. dxc5 is bad for White. However, 4. Nf3 Nc6 5. dxc5 is much much better for White.

4. c3 is still the worst no matter what though, even perhaps worse than 4. dxc5. It completely justifies the Botvinnik-Carls.

PawnHurricanes

Dxc5 is the best move?

Ethan_Brollier
PawnHurricanes wrote:

Dxc5 is the best move?

Yes and no. Here’s a board hopefully explaining it.

PawnHurricanes

What on earth are you talking about??? Give the best variations for both sides:

PawnHurricanes

The line after Nf3 is showing why it’s good for black.

Sandy2918

Nice

Ethan_Brollier
PawnHurricanes wrote:

The line after Nf3 is showing why it’s good for black.

Consider, then, why White scores 48/30/22 from 4… cxd4. White is still doing better because after moving the c-pawn THREE TIMES, all it has done is allow White’s knight an incredibly active outpost in the middle of the board.
And while we’re on the topic of not showing the best moves for both sides… after cxd4 Nxe4 Nc6 why are we playing Bb5? c4 is better, heck White can even play Nxc6 bxc6 Bd3 and ask Black what he’s trying to do with that LSB.

PawnHurricanes

And Ba6. As for c4, e6 is just fine. I don’t know why you’re arguing with an engine?

PawnHurricanes

I’m a Caro player, and dxc5 is the line I fear the most. Just putting it out there.

Ethan_Brollier
PawnHurricanes wrote:

And Ba6. As for c4, e6 is just fine. I don’t know why you’re arguing with an engine?

White’s better to much better in the line you gave against Nxc6, and c4 e6 is merely the start of a set of lines where White is still better with best okay from both sides.

I was under the impression that I wasn’t arguing with an engine, merely discussing lines with a fellow Botvinnik-Carls player. The discovery that I’m not is mildly disappointing.

Ilampozhil25

conclusion: Nf3 and dxc3 are both much better than c3

coz c3 

Yerachmeal

Back to the wing gambit, look at this game where White, who was rated 218 lower than black, almost won using the wing gambit. https://www.chess.com/analysis/game/master/13382861?tab=review

White had higher opening accuracy even though black was the ultimate victor.

Yerachmeal

Move 10, 11 etc he had a humongous lead in development, black had just moved it's queen back having barely anything out, and bishops that were blocked in. Totally worth a pawn for white. I think it was the rook blunder at the end that did white in.

Yerachmeal

This is a better example. Black was rated 75 higher and still lost. https://www.chess.com/analysis/game/master/16420903?tab=review

On a pratical level wing gambit can be very hard to deal with as long as white is comfortably versed in it.