Seeking Advice from 1800+ players: When should white push g pawn against Indian defence?

I am pretty familiar with Indian defense and has good results playing white. After I study this opening further, I've started to be aware that, if white has played h3 earlier, it will has an option to push its g pawn to g4. I played this move a few times but the result is mixed.

So, anyone knows any theory about when should white push its g-pawn?

Below are two sample games.

In this first example, engineer says that g4 is the best move, instead of castling:

However in this second game, g4 is a bad move. White should have castled:

I think you would have to make your assessment after black responds.

I don't want to be rude, but I've been clear about seeking advice from someone WHO KNOWS THE THEORY, likely someone who is 1800+ rated and has better chess knowledge than me.

I don't need anyone to mansplain to me that "it depends".

I don't think I was mansplaining. It does depend.

I was just pointing out that you can't find the best plan for white until you know what black does.

I know enough to know that play for white is usually on the queenside. I know enough to recognize that the move g5 makes little sense because it helps black with his counterplay which often involves moving the knight and playing f5.

If you look at the databases, it is clear you have gone into relatively minor sub- variations.

And then to top that off, you won't even give a move for black.

There is no clear-cut answer; mainly it depends on concrete details. One of the most important ideas is how White's whole setup (not just g4) is going to fare against Black's attempts at counterplay, like mining with h5 (then f6 if g5), the classical f5 push, or c6 cxd5 followed by queenside play. I think the bishop stands better at e2 and Bd3-c2 is often not that great if White wants to play with g4 but I don't really know if it's official theory.

In the first example above, Black's setup is so bad almost anything will do and give White a big advantage. In the second one g4 is not great because Black is ready for queenside play with c6 and cxd5 then White's king has really no safe haven anywhere; Black will always find counterplay.

Thanks very much for your reply. There are lots of information in your answer and it'll take time to digest. But even at a glimpse it is very enlightening.

I agree my original question is too vague. To be more specific, I want to research into the sub-line of white playing h3 early. It stops black from playing bishop g4. This is my favorite line and probably the only line I have in-depth knowledge.

However, I have found that white h3 invites black classical f5 push. It also invites black play bxh3 to sacrifice its dark bishop to attack.

I believe white g4 can effectively stop black from playing either f5 or bxh3 (not possible LOL). Therefore, g4 is a legit option for white following h3.

I am just not very sure that how h3-g4 combination should be used. For example, you have pointed out that bishop d3-c2 is not good in my sample game #2. However, bishop d3-c2 can be effective against black knight a6-c4. The point is: do "bd3-c2" and "h3-g4" not compatible to each other?

Again, many thanks for your answer.

I play the Samisch variation of the King's Indian Defense with white and that means that I get g4 in many of my games with similar positions. In your two diagrams, the main difference is more understanding pawn structure than it is about memorizing theory.

In the first diagram, g4 is a good move because white often castles queenside anyway and starts a pawn storm on the kingside with moves like g4-h4-h5 if allowed. The key here is that the center is closed and white has bought themselves a little time to keep their king in the center. Note the black pawns on e5 and c5. There are no pawn breaks to fight in the center. Playing ...b5 or ...f5 require a lot of time to prepare and black won't get the chance with pressure such as g4.

Contrast this to the second diagram; black has a similar position, but the c-pawn is still back on c7 instead of c5 and this means that c7-c6 can start to chip away at the center. Notice that the top engine move for black (at least at my engine depth) is ...Rc8 and probably to prepare ...c6. In this position, g4 is less desireable because the center isn't as closed and if the c6 pawn captures with ...cxd5 cxd5, then the c-file is open, there is a black rook on c8 and castling queenside is less attractive while the kingside pawns are advanced with g4; the white king is more dangerously vulnerable.

A year ago (before I got a webcam), I made this YouTube video which might be helpful for you. It gives several example positions (5 if I recall) you can use to test your judgement on which direction to castle and you can compare this to my thought-process during the games:

This is very helpful. You claim that it is not theory but to me it is a good theory when you explained the difference between having/ not-having a closed center. I will apply this theory to my games and review the results. Many thanks

For this specific example it looks like casting is better in the second because black still has center breaks with c6 and f5, Qside knight is also closer to your kingside so it can be mobilitzed.

In first example center is completely closed so wing attacks are strong. Especially with the light squared bishop and q side knight being completely cut off from defending the queen.

The moves your showing are some what subpar.

Your playing e4 to late.

Your playing h3 to late.

Its hard to answer your question because the theory leading up to the positions which your showing are all off to me.

You need to play e4 on move 4 in order to prevent/dissuade Black from playing d5.

When White plays e4, Black will usually respond with d6 to prevent the e5 lines.

Afterward, you should be playing Nf3 on move 5.

The move Nf3 helps ensure Black will castle.

——————————

When you play e4 late, You give Black the option to play d5 against you changing the position from KID to Gruenfeld.

When you play h3 to early, You give Black the option to castle Queenside because they haven’t committed to castling Kingside, yet.

——————————

When you move your E pawn as White, The corresponding piece Black likes to move generally is their D pawn.

When you move your Knight as White, The corresponding piece Black likes to move is King.

——————————

So to reach your position the moves are often played like below:

Now against 6.h3, Black is supposed to play a c5 type of move.
Sometimes, Black players will play a Na6 move as preparation so that when they play c5 if you take on c5, they can take back with Knight.

If you push to d5 instead of taking, they move the Knight to c7 to help with Queen side expansion.

Black idea is to play on Queenside + Center.

Black will often open the E file with a e6 move trading off the E pawn. Than they will expand on Queen side trying to get a b5 pawn break.

White play will be in center + Kingside.

White main pawn break is e5.

White will often play f4 pawn move along with e4 + d5 to create a pawn roller in Center/Kingside.

The move g4 doesn’t get played in this position because the White King is often using pawn as shelter.

———————————

Against the 6.h3 line, Black shouldn’t play e5.

It is considered a positional mistake and can be a tactical mistake depending on how white plays it.

When Black plays e5, They are trying to force thru the F5 pawn break!

THUS, The move G4 comes online.

G4 combined with E4 try to positionally clamp down on the F5 square makes any F5 pawn Break by Black a loss of a pawn.

This is why the move G4 is so strong.

In addition, White can go step further by Castling Queen side and all of a sudden Black King side expansion is received by White with 2 White Rooks on G + H File which is how Tactical aspect comes into play.

Good answer. Very much to the point. Many thanks.

Thanks for much for your detailed explanation. I really appreciate it.

With that said, I hold a little reservation against your assessment that 1) I played e4 too late and 2) I played h3 too early.

These are legit variation of King's Indian and I want to explain why.

King's Indian is a sharp game with lots of tactics for black. So when I play someone rated higher than me, I would rather play Grunfield, because it helps the white to build a center pawn cluster, like this:

According to engineer, white has less advantage than against Indian defense. However, the position is overall simpler and easier to manage for a lower-rated player. And white still have some positional advantage.

As for the "h3 too early"....that's a personal thing, because I don't like this line:

After black traded its bishop with my knight, d4 is no longer protected, and black's knight can occupy this square.

To avoid black n-d4, white has to take bishop with it's g-pawn, like this:

Engine says white has advantage....but for a lower-rated player like me, it feels weird to play with my king side pawn opened up.

Again, many thanks for your advices.

Haven't read all previous comments in their entirety so apologies if anything is repeating what anyone else says but:

if we leave aside the move orders, then yeah in the first position g4 is just a nice positional binding move - I don't see it as an attacking move - at least not yet. Black has blocked up the centre playing the usually undesirable ...e5 AND ...c5 which means his only break is gonna be ...f5 at some point. So g4 makes this harder to achieve, if white made some non-moves like 0-0 and a3 or something - basically anything that allowed Black to play ...Nh5-f4 that would not be a manouver that white wants to see, as positionally you can't really play Bxf4. and cede ...e5 and a load of dark squares. So g4 followed by Bg5 (maybe provoking weakening...h6) and quite possibly h3-h4 makes sense to me.

In the second example: again leaving aside specifics (although ...Bd7 looks dubious as its not sure that move will be needed or not) because Black has not played ...c5 you don't have the same stablity (as I think someone already mention) and their queenside play can get going quicker, sometimes even sacs with a very quick ...b5 are possiible for example.

But it's always really hard to assess these things. In the first example you could decide not to play g4 and it probably isn't the end of the world, and in the second example you could still consider playing g4, and it's maybe not optimal but equally it's not dreadful either.

This is a crystal clear and yet detailed elaboration. I am grateful and will take time to digest it.

To address your doubt on bd7....I actually saw this move often when playing against black. The idea is to play bd7-Qe8 to target white's h3 pawn. After white castles (Here because c5 is not played, white doesn't want to long castle so it should naturally castle to king side), Qe8 will follow).

And even after Qe8, white still can't play g4 because black has h5 and there will be a quick attack at white's king side:

Again, many thanks for your advice. I really appreciate it.

I never gave any advice, opinions, or assessments in my post.

Your original question was asking about the theory.

I was trying to give you an accurate representation of what Opening theory says in the position you gave.

Keep in mind, I’m not a Title player or Grand Master. The Theory of these lines wasn’t created by me. Some Opening Theory has been around for hundreds of years before any of us were even alive.

I just happen to be a student of Chess + I play these lines.

For the above reasons, I took the time to learn about the Theory to get better in chess.

———————————————

Your comments are trying to shot messenger so to speak. LOL

If you want to play what you want, I say go for it.

I’m not Johnny Kill Joy trying to steal or put a damper on your parade.

———————————————

I’m just trying to tell you everything your saying/doing is going against what Theory says.

Grunfeld is a lot stronger Opening vs. KID.

Delaying e4 - Letting your opponent get into Gruenfeld isn’t good - That’s what Theory says.

You go for having a small advantage to having nothing as White.

Early h3 - Lets your opponent know what your playing.

‘When you play Nf3, Black still doesn’t have clue what your playing because White has dozen different lines they can play.

The Bg4 line for Black is considered subpar and White has bigger openings advantage if Black plays it which is why strong players don’t really play it.

‘It is a very obscure line.

Perhaps, you not playing White side correctly?

What exactly is causing your trouble?

I would say push the G pawn when its the move that does the most for the position, move number may be irrelevant to a degree, each and every move you may see that you have a few candidate moves, then you discriminate between which ones give you the most for the tempo/move you are using.

however in this line, the first example, you may see that the bishop is behind the knight and not immediately attacking your pushed pawn, in the second example, although the knight is on the rim, they are still in the game gaining some potential tempo on your pieces, also the bishop on its starting square attacks your pawn, you may not want to open it up there if your king gets too exposed, each and every move you give up squares and gain them, tempo is also a factor.

Of course I am not playing it correctly, or otherwise i wouldn't be here asking the question. Heck, if i could play wihte correctly i would have become a titled player.

And no, i am definitely no looking to "shoot the messager". I am not even challenging you. I made it clear that my choice has personal reasons.

And I appreciate your advice.

Thank you for your response. I appreciate it.

I want to give my own opinion/advice.

I already explained why certain moves are playing at certain times due to Theory.

If we take a step back for a moment, The question you need to ask yourself is what exactly do you want?

You have been given the information so that you can formulate a good decision based on the information and your preferences.

Personally, I think you should follow theory.

Lets say for argument sake, you decide not to follow theory. I still think you could make the position work, but you will need to change lines.

If you play 4.Nf3 instead of 4.e4, you are deliberately taunting Black into playing a Grunfeld. You are poking the Bear!

I think White can get away with the above, but you will have to play the Russian Game which is below line:

The exchange line is to risky for White.

In the exchanges line, White often plays their G1 Knight to e2.

The above is the way the exchange line often plays out. If Black wants to play Grunfeld, they can do it on move 3. They don’t have to delay.

When Black delays, it often means they are trying to play KID position. When you play 4.Nf3, they can try transposing back into Grunfeld to see if they can exploit move orders.

They are trying to get into a slightly better position vs. normal. I don’t remember the theory for the Nf3 exchange line because I haven’t faced it in long time.

A lot of strong players play Ne2 line as it’s main way to play I would say.

Maybe, you can find a book or information about the Nf3 exchange Grunfeld. You definitely are going to need a leading authority on that line because your literally putting yourself in fire with that line.

White center can collapse so fast in that line if white doesn’t know what they are doing.

————————————

I think the Russian Game might be easier because your very close to the starting position.

Something worth thinking about I suppose