Seeking Advice from 1800+ players: When should white push g pawn against Indian defence?

You've given a very valuable lesson of the theory.

As I've stated before, I personally prefer playing against Grunfeld - Exchange Line, than playing KID, when I play higher-rated players.

If you check my daily games, I am currently in an exchange line against a 2000+ player (his daily game rating is lower, but his rapid is 2000+) . See this link: Chess: MyBrainNeedsOil vs BalfaKrOOl_FCB - 719526267 - Chess.com

Maybe my feeling is irrational, but it appears to me that KID has much more variations than Grunfeld-Exchange line. Also I think KID has more tactics than Grunfeld-Exchange line.

Again, you are right about the theories. Computer also says that white is better off against KID than against Grunfeld. However, I am not computer. I am not even a 1800+ player. For me, Grunfeld is easier to manage when playing white.

Again, many thanks for your lessons.

It is very strange and irrational.

BUT if it works, Than I say go for it.

Play it till it stops working! 

Let’s fast forward a little bit to move 6.

The below position is Theory:

The below position is how your playing the line.

Let’s say your opponent doesn’t capitalize on your move orders. Let’s moves get played till move 6.

The position should transpose and be the same!

I guess the question would be is plans do you have in the line your playing?

I have never played the line as White so what plans do you have? Is this a line you randomly started playing or is this a line you found out about?

It's my preferred line against KID as I've I said, I hate to allow black bg4 to pin my knight.

Whenever I play queen's opening, my plan is to move both bishop to queen side to attack black's king side. If black played bg4, my light bishop would have to go be7, and get stuck at king's side.

That's why i played h3 earlier than most people would. And then my plan is to play bd3-bc2 soon.

Back to the position. In this position, black usually will play either c5 or e5 to stop white e5 attack. Sometimes black plays c6. Other moves are rare. So let's focus on black play c5 or e5.

1. If black plays e5, black usually want to push f pawn ,or to advance b knight (na6-nc5). If black plays na6-c5, it helps white to move bishop to c2, and then push its b-pawn to kick black knight back. Below is the line. I do like this position, because white gains a few tempos.

2. If black plays c5, it probably wants to open up queen side. I will continue with my bd3-bc3 plan, but will respond to black a or b pawn to close the queen side. And then I usually play bg5 to dare black play h6. The reason is after bf4, and later white Qc2, black will have to play kh7. This, again, create a position where both white's bishop are attacking black's king. See below:

3. If black plays both c5 and e5, it closes the center. Black usually attack at the king side,, and white will use same strategy, as below:

This is my understanding of KID so far. Your comments are more than welcome.

There is no hard and fast rule in the King's Indian Defense when it comes to white advancing the g-pawn. there are many factors to consider:

1) If you are going to advance g4, then more often than not, you are likely looking to castle queenside. The feasibility of this depends on the variation played. For example, castling queenside in the Fianchetto variation is nonsense. Same goes for the four pawns attack. But in the Saemisch, it depends on the line Black plays. The lines where Black plays a6, c6, and b5, which rips open the queenside, queenside castling is utter nonsense, but in some other lines, it works and you can storm the kingside pawns.

2) Where is Black's attack? It isn't always ...f5. In fact, ...f5 is a terrible move unless Black has coerced White into playing d4-d5. As long as White can still play dxe5, playing ...f5 is nonsense.

3) Other factors include King safety (g4 can be fatal in some positions), development, the center (is it blocked, open, or full of tension, etc).

There are some fine responses in this thread.

I'm barely qualified to even reply. I was 1805 in daily games at one time in the past.

But the basic idea here is the consideration of when a pawn advancement is warranted in comparison to king safety.

Two major factors in making that determination is :

A) where will attacking play happen on the board. Queenside, kingside, or in the center? And where is your king and do you have the time and the place to relocate the king while engaging in the pawn advancement?

B) is the center closed, open, locked, or does it have the potential to be fluid again based on pawn breaks by either side? Remember, a locked center generally cannot become fluid again without a peice sacrifice by either side. Usually the peice to be sacrificed is a knight or a bishop.

To a certain extent, the specific details of the position do determine which is the right decision as the two examples show.

We reached the above position using your specific moves.

The move I play as Black is Na6.

I found the move e5 can be dangerous for Black.

The reason why is because the line can overlap with another White Variation which can cause a Player to get tripped up.

I can’t explain it at moment because I’m at lunch break, but the line I’m talking about is the Petrosian Variation.

I look forward to hearing from you. Just to clarify white e5 is not an immediate threat. However, if black doesn't play e5, black will not be able to push d5 either, because white will always have e5 if black play d5.

On the other hand, if black play e5 first, white will almost have to play d5 to counter it.

Also, na6 is a good move and I have seen it a lot. There are other lines, but my preferred one is if black play na6 at move 6, white will immediately respond with bd3. And then, if black nb4, white bb1, and then a3 to kick black knight.

I think you might have got a little confusion.

I wasn’t talking about White playing e5.

I was talking about Black playing e5.

In the above position, it is Black to move.

The move I play is Na6.

I use to play e5 as Black, but I stopped playing e5 because it can be tricky!

The move e5 by Black can be a little dangerous for Black.

A lot of Black side players will play e5 and they might get themselves into trouble if they are not careful.

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To help explain why Black can gets into trouble, I want to do a detour to another line known as the Petrosian Variation.

The below line is the line the Legendary Chess Player known as Tigran Petrosian use to play.

Chess Players gave him a nickname known as “Iron Tigran”.

They called him “Iron Tigran” because trying to break thru his defenses was like trying to go thru solid Iron! Tigran had a very cautious and safe personality. This is how he was as a person in real life and his careful personality manifested itself thru his game play.

Tigran Petrosian is regarded as 1 of the Best Positional Grand Masters in all of chess.

Because of all the above, The Chess Line named after him is highly regarded.

The Chess line is also extremely popular and it is important to know this because the h3 line is a very clever line designed to trick people.

The below position is the starting position of the Petrosian Variation!

Thousand of games have been played in the above position.

However, I want you to take a very close look at the above position and compare it to h3 line.

We can see some very interesting similarities!

It practically looks identical except for the H pawn + Light Square Bishop.

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The reason I bring this information up is because in the Petrosian line black idea is to put a Knight on c5.

The OP showed a line where White can play b4 to chase Knight away, but that isn’t considered the correct way for Black to play.

The OP showed a line like above.

If white can do the above, it is great for white because it makes black screwed up.

The proper way for Black to play is to start with a5.

Again, we are looking at the Tigran line. Black wants to play Knight to c5.

If they do it right away, White will play b4 kicking Knight away.

So the correct way for Black is to play a5 first to prevent any b4 moves.

If White plays b4, Black can trade it off with a5 pawn and Knight on c5 will stay forever.

If White tries to get fancy with a3 move to drive home b4, Black will clamp down with a6 move.

Obviously, White doesn’t play Qc2 + Bd1.

I just want to show so you can see how White can try to add more attackers, but Black does have great supply of defenders. If you try to play b4, they take en passant.

Most times White has to do a slower plan with b3 + a3 + b4.

White often can’t play b4 right away or they can end up in a clamped situation like above.

This is how the Petrosian Line is sort of playing!

Black’s plan is to attack Kingside, but they try to also slow down White expansion/attack on Queen Side. They use A pawn in combination with other pieces to slow down White efforts so that they can start their King side attack.

If Black doesn’t try to slow White down on Queenside, White will often break thru and surround Black from side. This is how Black can lose extremely fast!

So what we are saying is Black is mainly clogging up + slowing white up Queen side while attempting to attack and checkmate white on Kingside.

‘This is happening in the Petrosian line - I’m make new post to show the H3 line next.

Now, that you understand how the Petrosian line plays.

We can start seeing the sneaky intentions the h3 line is doing!

NOTICE THE DIFFERENCE!

This is the h3 line, but the position looks very similar to Petrosian line.

The Black player might think the line is the same and they might try to play it the same way!

AND THIS IS WHAT THE H3 LINE IS BANKING ON!

White idea is to castle Queen side!

Remember, Black isn’t attacking Queenside in Petrosian line and if they confuse the Petrosian line with this line. They are going to find themselves in a world of hurt!

White idea is to castle Queenside - Than let Black charge forward on King side straight into an Ambush!

Who’s King is in more danger?

Again, I didn’t computer check all the above moves.

Their could be better moves for either side.

I am just trying to show you how the line can trick people into their own demise.

The difference between h3 line & Petrosian line is very subtle.

It is so easy for a person playing Black to get tripped up into thinking this line is same.

This is actually 1 of the main reasons I stopped playing e5 against h3.

I play the Na6 line because it is so hard to remember what to do when the lines are very similar. You can confuse yourself very easy as Black.

White plays Bg5 in Petrosian line & plays Bg5 in h3 line.

The over lap is very close together and if your not completely on top of it.

The position can spiral out of control for Black.

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Obviously, The OP is playing white side, you are going to want to exploit these poor KID players. You have few ways to pressure them.

If Black doesn’t play a5, Than jumps Knight to c5.

You could do Queen side expansion + castle King side and win the game like that.

The line would play out similar to the Petrosian line when they don’t play a5.

If Black does play a5 + tries King side attack plan, you can do a change up.

You can castle Queen side + try to shred open King side with pawn exchanges and g4 moves.

Thank you!

That's the best lesson i have got for a long while.

I used to respond to black a5 with white a3. The result is mixed. It often ends up opening the queenside and makes it impossible for white to long castle.

You have correctly pointed out that, according to the theory, i should ignore black a5 ,because i've played h3. The right response is to push g4, and attack at king side, which will make black a5/ba6/bc5 look very "slow". Black used three moves without achieving anything substantial.

That's very insightful!

Against lines with ...a5, if you want to open the Queenside, a3 is not the answer. Black can respond with ...a4 and it's good for Black.

You need to play b3, and then a3, and then b4.