Tarrasch or Chigorin

I was referring more to whites pawn structure. the pawn on g3, e2, and d4 and the c pawn is gone. in the Catalan. it was general pattern type recognition not anything for concrete analysis.

arosbishop, I think that is a well thought out answer.

you will certainly learn a lot about typical pawn structures if you play the tarrasch against people who know decent amount of theory and go for the most challenging tries. the g3 setup is one of them. the others being when white gives you an iqp or you give him one. either way you learn about the iqp.

the chigorin i never thought about using. it is fairly reliant on tactical chances and probably when you start facing people who kill most of the tactics you will start not liking your positions even if they are okay objectively. unless you like dry positions but then why play the chigorin for that.

are there any Tarrasch lines where white does not play g3 and Bg2?

thanks for answering the question.

the symmetrical line with e3 nc3 nf3 a3 and same corresponding moves for black. this is considered a main line as far as i know, and might be overtaking the g3 setup in practice.

I play the Tarrasch Defense when I have Black and after 1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 c5 4 cxd5 exd5 5 Nf3 Nc6 I've had many opponents go 6 dxc5 against me. After 6...d4 7 Na4 Bxc5 8 Nxc5 Qa5+ 9 Qd2 (or 9 Bd2) Qxc5 White has the Bishop pair and that is likely why many players with White go down the line.

At Chessbase Opening Database White scores about 70% in this line. However, the average rating of White is about 2470 whereas the average rating of Black is about 2370, a 100 points difference, that can help account for White scoring so well.

In the repertoire book Fight 1 d4 with the Tarrasch, GM Kotronias covers this in 26 pages and concludes Black holds but Black does need to have studied it well.

I think Tarrasch opening is better because its safer
It lets Black control the center and develop his pieces quickly
Chigorin opening is more risky because it can lead to complications
The Tarrasch Variation is safer because it does not immediately open up the position. This gives Black more time to develop his pieces and get into a good position.
The Chigorin Defense is more risky because it opens up the position and gives White more space to maneuver. This can lead to complications and make it more difficult for Black to control the game
I believe that the Tarrasch Variation is the more sound opening for Black

I am a chigorin fan but I can understand Tarrasch players because it's very solid but I still think chigorin is the better one

I missed playing the Tarrasch Defense and came running back to it. I like the freedom of space, and key iqp elements that tend to occur again and again, and that my king never comes under attack. It seems almost systematic to me.

However, I don't really think it's all that good to win a lot with. But it still is amazing to me how often I can hold a draw even if I go a pawn down and I recall someone once wrote in a Tarrasch Defense book (Schiller's?) that often occurs in the Tarrasch Defense for black if he loses a pawn, and indeed that has been my experience.

Recently I even had a game in which I didn't like the pressure I seemed under (turned out it wasn't that bad, I just don't have the patience to defend much anymore) so I tossed a pawn mostly intuitively. It went into a rook and pawns endgame in which he had little chance of winning it and yep it ended in a draw.

Tarrasch is the better one ig

Here is how Karpov played Kasparov in 1984

https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1067121

And here is how Steinitz played Chigorin in 1889

https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1036314

Any insights or games in the Schara Gambit?

It looks like fun. Thanks

I've only played the Schara Gambit (1 d4 d4 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 c5 4 cxd5 cxd4) a couple of times and it's been quite a while back. I didn't get much going for my pawn and ended up just trying to hold on in the endgames a pawn down each time if I recall correctly. But it could have just been me.

I see SF 17 has white just 0.45 better which means black does have some compensation for the pawn. I'm reading that this gambit is a specialty of IM Wang Chen who has used it to good effect against a number of Chinese Super GMs, and that the Romanian IM Miron has used it a number of times.

I'm thinking about using it for faster time control. There are pluses that I see.

I'm thinking about using it for faster time control. There are pluses that I see.

I can see how the gambit is sort of attractive. White is the one under some pressure instead of black. Even if things don't pan out all that well, since the pawn formations are the same on each side white may have much difficulty in converting the extra pawn, especially if black's pieces are well placed in the endgame. It's only possible if white plays 3 Nc3. I have a lot of opponents go 3 Nf3 though.

I've played the Tarrasch Defense for years and it's getting to the point that I won't be playing anything else.

On the other hand, I'm ditching the Scandinavian and taking up the Petroff.

I'm just a wood pusher.

I am also ditching the Scandinavian and going back to the first e4 defense that I learned which was the French.

I instinctively played the Tarrasch against 1.d4 because I didn't know anything else. Even though I didn't know it was a real defense, nor did I study any theory. I would just wing it based on my French experience.

d5,e6,c5 same as the French.

ok

I'd go with the Tarrasch .... hands down!

Although White can not prevent the Chigorin equalizing .. IMO White's play in the center is much easier to conceptualize and put a game plan into action.

I open with 1.d4 2.Nf3 and usually 3.e3 and vary my opening from there. The Chigorin doesn't give 3. e3 much trouble.. One wouldn't think that is the actual case, but all theory I've looked at, it appears to be so.

In my limited skilled opinion (here now known as IMLSO) The Tarrasch... is a much harder defense to fight against. Apparently, It's not the opening to play at 2700+ elo Karpov showed how to play against it in the endgame. (A moot point for most of us... very few super GMs today can play endgames of Karpov's caliber... And.... I'm willing to bet someone using a top shelf chess engine has already made the position or positions Karpov exposed as a weakness moot also.