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What Variation of the French is the best as white?

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Thankfulbear

I play the normal Variation of the French with Nc3. However I find it hard especially online to play variations like the Winawer as it is just so complicated and especially as a high level bullet player (2300). Playing against it is just horrible for reference here is a game I lost very fast as white.

Although it was a fast game I lost very badly and this happens way too much in fast games I also played some other anti-main-line theory like the king's Indian attack and Two Knights French and they are alright but I wish there was something that didn't throw me down on evaluation and still give me a not hard to play position . 

tlay80

I'm not sure if it's what you're looking for, but you could try 8. Bd3 -- delaying the question of whether to take on g7 for another move. It's a bit less forced, a bit less theoretical -- in short, it turns down the temperature a degree or too over the main lines of the Poisoned Pawn, but it's still strategically rich, with the potential for fireworks, and White is definitely still pressing.

Another idea that's been trendy lately has been 7. h4. This too is a bit less forced than the old main line of the Poisoned Pawn, while still giving White good chances to play for an advantage.

ibrust
Thankfulbear wrote:

I play the normal Variation of the French with Nc3. However I find it hard especially online to play variations like the Winawer as it is just so complicated and especially as a high level bullet player (2300). Playing against it is just horrible for reference here is a game I lost very fast as white.

Although it was a fast game I lost very badly and this happens way too much in fast games I also played some other anti-main-line theory like the king's Indian attack and Two Knights French and they are alright but I wish there was something that didn't throw me down on evaluation and still give me a not hard to play position .

Yeah I have a similar problem... it's not easy throwing off the french player. I played the Paulsen french for a while but it feels too formulaic, and in certain lines black counterattacks the center and gets some good initiative. I've been considering either just going deep in the tarrasch, or playing 2. b3. Haven't really analyzed them in depth yet but... the Tarrasch seems like you get better initiative in the middlegame.

Another option I'm looking at is this diemer-duhm gambit... for bullet it could be more viable -

 
Another thing you could try is playing a sideline against the winawer. This is the line I like... the mainline winawer is complex but the french player can navigate the complexity alot better since they play it very often, not ideal - 
Thankfulbear

You know the diemer-duhm gambit actually looks very viable for bullet. And I have actually looked at the Tarrasch but I don't like how hard it is to squeeze out an advantage.

ibrust

This chigorin line is also kind of interesting... it'll transpose into a position that sort of resembles a KIA if black plays it right... but black goes wrong more often. But it looks like you can mix in b3 too sometimes depending on blacks setup

Thankfulbear

Ah yes I actually have seen this line before but I think it is similar to a KIA its setup based but your not going to gain a reasonable advantage as white. Although it may be better than the KIA because of this variation.

In classical this I remember as an okay position but it is very hard to play in bullet as it is hard to get a breakthrough similar to this line.

Both I have played in classical and did okay but it is definitely not fun in bullet. 
 

Strayaningen
Thankfulbear wrote:

You know the diemer-duhm gambit actually looks very viable for bullet. And I have actually looked at the Tarrasch but I don't like how hard it is to squeeze out an advantage.

I am rated ~200 points lower than you at rapid but I like the Tarrasch. If Black is really booked up then it will be hard to get an advantage but that goes for any opening. White retains initiative for a very long time. For example up until 14...O-O these are all maybe the strongest and the most popular moves for Black at 2500+ on Lichess against the lines I play. I have gotten the position after 12. Bf1 on the board a number of times.

 
 
Thankfulbear

That seems to be an very interesting line especially Nxg7 I will definitely look at this one as it seems to be good for bullet and I am actually happy about getting more space and the initiative over the extra material in the Winawer but the Closed Tarrasch is still quite a big roadblock for me as I can imagine it being not as easy to obtain an advantage in the short run. If anyone has any suggestions for the Tarrasch closed but preferably not main line because main line openings are harder to obtain an advantage in.

Strayaningen

The Closed Tarrasch is considered much inferior to the Open these days. One good option is this:

When Black's play on the Q-side is at a standstill and you just send the h-pawn and so on. What I play myself because I learnt it to short-circuit theory when I picked up the Tarrasch and am too lazy to switch to something else is this:

This is objectively equal, but I think it would be good for bullet because it is EXTREMELY rare (played less than 0.5% of the time 2000+ Lichess) and it is not obvious at all what Black should do. If Black does nothing you will play Ne2 and Ndf3 and establish a firm hold on d4 and then figure out how to attack on the K-side. Typical attempts at Q-side play for Black fail, for example 7...Qb6 8. Ne2 cxd4 9. cxd4 Nb4 10. Bb1 is now +1.2 for White, Black is just not getting anything over there. Although I am hopeless at bullet, so bear that in mind

darkunorthodox88

agaisnt the winawer i recommend the Larsen antidote 4.exd5 exd5 5. Qf3.
exchange winawer tempts black to give his bishop pair for nothing and it psychologically doesnt give him the really imbalanced asymmetrical fight he wants, but qf3 adds some of the spice back. You should check it out.

Alchessblitz

I think variation #1 except of course we will play 10) Ne2

dcyftukd

I personally love the Two Knights against the French, it gains a developing lead against black and supports the counter-offensive against Black's pawn storm idea in the French.

Mazetoskylo

Did you really play that game?

Care to show us the game in your archive?

Superplayer7472

The Schetler variation (3.Bd3) might be worth a look. Black has only one answer that equalises (3...dxe4), and after 4.Bxe4 Nf6 5.Bf3, I personally really hate that black can't easily play ...Nc6.
A line where black does get an okay position, but not any advantage:

classical_lover1001

I personally recommend Nc3, and a sideline against the winawer, but against Nf6 e5. The winawer player is often thrown off in sidelines and as a classical french player from the black side, I believe 4.e5 is most annoying to face.

ibrust
classical_lover1001 wrote:

I personally recommend Nc3, and a sideline against the winawer, but against Nf6 e5. The winawer player is often thrown off in sidelines and as a classical french player from the black side, I believe 4.e5 is most annoying to face.

Are there any interesting lines in the steinitz you can recommend? Preferably ones that put pressure on black and aren't the most main lines?

classical_lover1001
ibrust wrote:
classical_lover1001 wrote:

I personally recommend Nc3, and a sideline against the winawer, but against Nf6 e5. The winawer player is often thrown off in sidelines and as a classical french player from the black side, I believe 4.e5 is most annoying to face.

Are there any interesting lines in the steinitz you can recommend? Preferably ones that put pressure on black and aren't the most main lines?

If you want a sideline, I suggest 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.Nce2 c5 6. c3 Nc6 7.h4!?. But if you have the time and patience to study the main lines, definitely do! (especially the 5.f4 ones) I mostly play main lines myself.

Compadre_J

I have played the KIA exclusively against the French since I was rated 500.

KIA is killer line vs. French - It’s considered a side line, but I still firmly believe it should be considered a main line because of how well it does.

It’s actually untrue for the OP to say the KIA has no advantage.

I did extensive analysis with the KIA for decades.

All the different engines testing and human move comparison I did showed to me the KIA maintains a slight advantage.

Thru my analysis the KIA was holding a +0.25 to +0.20 advantage.

Black has to play a very deep string best moves to even gain equality.

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The reason the OP believes the KIA is equal or has no advantage is because the OP is playing sub-optimal moves.

The move the OP showed was 4.g3 which is clearly an inaccuracy.

The correct move is 4.Ngf3.

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After 4.g3?!, Black should play 4…dxe4! immediately

5.Nxe4 - Black will have an advantage after Queen trades.

5.dxe4 - Black will have equal or slight advantage position depending on their follow up.

I think 5…e5 or 5…Nc6 (Both can transpose into each other) can lead to slight edge for Black

I think 5…b6 is more of equal position for Black, but I would argue it is tougher for white to play against just because of how solid and well entrenched the Black position is.

I think 5…Bc5 is another equal position for Black, but it can be a very aggressive line for White to deal with due to the fact white has lagging development on King side.

———————————————

It’s 100% possible to give an opponent a slight advantage in the opening.

Than seek to regain equality and push for an advantage in the middle game.

People can do the above, but it is a lot more work!

Players playing the KIA don’t have to do the above!

No one is forcing white to play 4.g3 in this position.

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If Black plays 4…c5, Than white can play 5.g3 and maintain small advantage.

If Black plays 4…dxe4, Than white will recapture with the pawn.

Key Point: White should avoid playing a fianchetto at that point!

This is how white maintains his small advantage.

—————————————

In fact, My analysis uncovered that if Black plays the above way White’s advantage would have grown by at least +0.10 of a pawn.

The above position for example I analyze it with engines over the years.

Previously, White advantage was +0.20 to +0.25

This position White advantage is +0.30 to +0.35

Some engines have even gone as high as +0.40 in the past.

Its clearly an advantage increase of at least 0.10 of a pawn.

White advantage is growing here and white can build off this!

Its obviously to understand why White position is so good.

A Light Square Bishop on g2 will have no scope because of white’s pawn on e4.

The above situation only gets worst if Black plays moves like e5 or Nc6 to prevent white from moving his e4 pawn to give Bishop on g2 activity. White will be playing with dead bishop.

In the 4.Ngf3 line, White has committed himself to a fianchetto because he hasn’t played g3.

This means White LSB can move out to b5 or c4 and get active!

——————————————

If we look at the above position on a human database, The human statistics are only confirming what we already know from chess engine.

- Databases played by humans show white is doing better with 4.Ngf3.

- A Chess engine evaluation says white is doing better.

- We as Human can understand how our LSB can struggle to be active in the 4.g3 line vs. 4.Ngf3 line

There really is no reason for white to play 4.g3 this position.

————————————

If Black is smart player, they will not play a French!

They will try to transpose into Sicilian

This is what a lot of the stronger French Players like to do.

They try to go into Sicilian which can screw up players who play Open Sicilian!

I had the above transposition happen to me which messed me up originally!

I use to play Open Sicilian, but this move order forces you to play Closed Sicilian.

I ended up having to learn the Closed Sicilian because of the French players and I ended up actually falling in love with the Closed Sicilian and ended up using Closed Sicilian as my main weapon against both Sicilian players and the French Transposition players.

‘White still maintains slight advantage in Closed Sicilian as well so yeah.

‘White is fine on both lines!

Black is clearly grasping for straws and anything they can muster in these positions!

Thankfulbear
Mazetoskylo wrote:

Did you really play that game?

Care to show us the game in your archive?

I played that one on lichess so its not in my archive.

Ziggy_Zugzwang

Not playing 1e4 these days, but if I was, I would look to 3Nc3 with ideas of an early and accelerated h pawn push within Steinitz variation and Winawer variations...