What’s the pros and cons of using the Indian Defense move order for the queens gambit declined.

What are the pros and cons to using the Indian Defense move order for the QGD? Like 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 d5

As mentioned already, con would be the Trompowsky. Another is the Catalan can be played without an early Nf3. 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 whereas 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.g3 allows 3...f5, so typically the Catalan players will play 3.Nf3 Nf6 and only then 4.g3. 3.Nf3 f5?? Is bad because of 4.Nc3 Nf6 5.Bf4! followed by 6.e3 and 7.Bd3 with the ideal setup against the Stonewall. That is why Stonewall players must wait for g3.

One pro is some hate the Nimzo enough that they will play 3.Nf3 if they are not Catalan players. This avoids exchange lines with Nge2. Many nimzo players play the QGD instead of QID or BID against 3.Nf3 and they will go Nimzo against 3.Nc3.

I agree with the prev comments but there is one more thing I would like to add. One important feat of the Nf6 move order is that you can play a queens gambit declined and fully rely on the semi tarrasch defence. If white wants to play the exchange QGD without allowing the semi tarrasch, he can commit to an early Nf3 and this way allow the semi-tarrasch like this:

What I am saying is that by playing the Nf6 move order, black can choose to enter the QGD depending on what white does. If he for example do not like to play against the early Nf3 QGD for any reason, he does not have to enter a QGD. If you enjoy playing ALL QGD lines with black, well then there really is no reason to play Nf6 as it allows more sidelines like trompowsky as you mentioned. If you like playing against the Nf3 QGD and not the Nc3 QGD, then go for the Nf6 move order instead, where you dont need to transpose into a QGD against Nc3.

Practically the only serious reason is to avoid the exchange variation of the QGD by throwing in the Nimzoindian. If you feel comfortable in the exchange variation, then go 1...d5.

The most important drawback of 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.g3 is 3...dxc4 followed by ...c5, ...Nc6 etc. The omission of the move Nf6 allows Black to equalize quite easily.

Some players who like the Semi-Tarrasch prefer to play 1...Nf6 and play the Nimzo against 3...Nc3 and go for ...d5 if White plays 3.Nf3. This helps to avoid Semi-Tarrasch lines with 7.Rb1 and 7.a3 which score well for White.

As I said, if you want to avoid the Nc3 QGD while allowing the Nf3 QGD you only need to play 3...d5 against 3.Nf3 and not against 3.Nc3. Against 3.Nc3 black could play anything - the nimzo, benoni etc.

Im not saying that you cannot play anything else against either the Nf3 or Nc3 QGD from 1...d5.

I am not saying that you must play into QGD against either Nc3 or Nf3.

What I have been saying this whole time is that the Nf6 move order will allow other openings than the d5 move order. You are caught up on wether or not you should transpose into a Nf3 QGD or a Nc3 QGD and I am saying that that is for the black player to decide. If you dont like to play against the Nc3 QGD you can also play the triangle slav against it like you mentioned from the d5 move order. But if you dont like any of the options that d5 have to offer against Nc3 you should try the Nf6 move order so that you dont have to transpose into a d4 d5 opening against it. You can play the nimzo against Nc3 for example.

Move order tricks are really just ways to get a different set of possible openings in a given game. It may confuse your opponent, and they may end up transpositioning into an opening that they do not usually play.

I am not saying that there is a specific line where black has to transpose into the QGD, its completely up to himself. The tarrasch line was purely an example on how one could ONLY play the mainlines in the semi-tarrasch while avoiding the sidelines, and you are once again claiming that this is suboptimal which I also stated in the same response as you quoted.

a) Yes it is a unique feature of the Nf6 move order in the case when he does not want to play any d5 opening against Nc3 lines. Say you want to play the nimzo against Nc3? How on earth can you do this by starting with 1...d5? This is what I have been saying the whole time, its not about being able to play a different depending on what your opponent does, it is rather about what choices of those different openings are. With d5 you get the option of the slav as we both mentioned, and with Nf6 they are the nimzo, benoni and queens indian for example. If anybody want BOTH QGD AND the nimzo in their repertoire, they start with Nf6. If you want the QGD AND the slav, they start with d5. Its simply about the selection pool of openings for black. This is not hard to understand.

b) This post was never meant to be about either the semi-tarrasch or the exchange variation specifically. I mentioned these openings to discuss the principle about adding different openings to your repertoire that usually start with different move orders. For example: The QGD and the nimzo. I did not mean this as everybody should fear the suboptimal exchange variation, and change their repertoires accordingly. This is not hard to understand.

In conclusion, my post was purely an example on how different move orders affect the pool of opening choices you can add to your repertoire. You keep mentioning specific openings and that they are not objectively good, but this is not the point I am trying to make.

You are once again talking like both options excludes the other, while it is only true for one of them. The Nf6 move order is flexible in a sense that it allows for both openings that usually start with 1...d5 and openings that usually start with Nf6. If you start with 1...d5 you exclude pretty much all openings that usually start with 1...Nf6.

Your analogy is not accurate since it excludes possible transpositions between the first moves. But in reality, the first moves branch out into more options. And from one of the choices (1...Nf6) you have the option of transposing into the second choice. Which is not the case for the second choice - You can transpose from 1...Nf6 into 1...d5 openings but not the other way around.

I feel like this should not be hard to understand, and I cannot help to think that you dont want to understand at this point. Every answer you have given have been completely neglecting and/or misunderstanding what I have written while anybody rated 800+ should probably understand what I am talking about. I know you are a strong player, and I know you understand what I am saying at this point.

I start with 1...e6, then Nf6 and see what they're up to. When they play all these weird anti-Nimzo-Indian lines, they usually end up in some kind of Queen's Indian setup on my side.

Now we are back at the start again. For the fifth time now, I have never said that any option is better than the other, or that it has more or fewer options, I have never stated this before, this is false. Please show me where I have said this because if you cant, you are trolling at this point.

What I have said though is that the choices of opening pools are different depending on how you start the game, not that one or the other has more or better options, just different. All I have ever said is that one aspect that you forgot to mention was that there are different ways to turn away from the QGD depending on if you choose to start with d5 or Nf6.

If you want to bring up the semi-tarrasch again, we can, but as I have explained in 3 different posts now, the comment was never about the semi-tarrasch, only to showcase what I explained above. That there are different pools of opening choices depending on how you start the game. I never made any claims on what I prefer or not.

If you think these claims contradict each other then please explain how:

Statement 1: The Nf6 move order is flexible in a sense that it allows for both openings that usually start with 1...d5 and openings that usually start with Nf6. If you start with 1...d5 you exclude pretty much all openings that usually start with 1...Nf6

Statement 2: I have never said that any option is better than the other, or that it has more or fewer options, I have never stated this before.

This is not a contradiction because being able to transpose from 1...Nf6 to openings that usually start with 1...d5 is not the same thing as being better, or having more transposition options. This is a logical fallacy. Your statements have therefore been false. Please try again.

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