Draw by timeout vs insufficient material?
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5 min blitz game and I have a light square Bishop vs rook. Opponent times out and game was drawn as, “timeout vs insufficient material.” Has anyone ever heard of this rule before? Or am I just missing something...
You cant mate with just a king, and bishop. You can mate with a king and rook, but your opponent ran out of time, so its a draw.
Still doesn’t explain why you get rewarded with a draw for running out of time. Isn’t that the whole point of having a clock?
MikeSwoboda wrote:
Still doesn’t explain why you get rewarded with a draw for running out of time. Isn’t that the whole point of having a clock?
Again...
You do not have mating material, so you cannot win.
Your opponent has mating material, but ran out of time.
End result is a draw.
Can you win the game?
My issue is with the clock. If you aren’t able to mate me with your ‘sufficient’ material before running out of time, why do I get penalized for surviving and you get a bonus for running out of time? What is the point of having a time limit if it doesn’t matter?
MikeSwoboda wrote:
My issue is with the clock. If you aren’t able to mate me with your ‘sufficient’ material before running out of time, why do I get penalized for surviving and you get a bonus for running out of time? What is the point of having a time limit if it doesn’t matter?
Time does matter. If you run out of time when your opponent has "sufficient mating material" on the board, then you will lose.
But the rules of chess are that if you do not have "sufficient mating material" on the board, then you cannot win. You can at best draw, which you did in your game.
Those are the rules you can either accept them or choose another game to play.
In other words if you win on clock than the rule gives you the best possible result for you.
It's for the love of chess...
One more time: for the love chess (bass line)
😅 don't be mad. Sure, winning on time even though you haven't the slightest chance of mate is indeed a technical win, as far as the FIDE is concerne last I checked, but chess.com is not obliged to comply with the policies of any one chess federation. Any rules pertaining to the clock are not in fact official chess rules, they're house rules.
WSama wrote:
It's for the love of chess...
One more time: for the love chess (bass line)
😅 don't be mad. Sure, winning on time even though you haven't the slightest chance of mate is indeed a technical win, as far as the FIDE is concerne last I checked, but chess.com is not obliged to comply with the policies of any one chess federation. Any rules pertaining to the clock are not in fact official chess rules, they're house rules.
For FIDE it is only a win if mate is possible by any series of legal moves.
Think of your opponent. If he(she) is in the mating position, but looses on time, then it is unfair to them because besides time, they have the winning advantage.
but u should still use yr time wisely
Martin_Stahl wrote:
WSama wrote:
It's for the love of chess...
One more time: for the love chess (bass line)
😅 don't be mad. Sure, winning on time even though you haven't the slightest chance of mate is indeed a technical win, as far as the FIDE is concerne last I checked, but chess.com is not obliged to comply with the policies of any one chess federation. Any rules pertaining to the clock are not in fact official chess rules, they're house rules.
For FIDE it is only a win if mate is possible by any series of legal moves.
I wasn't aware of that. Is it a new rule, or did the site only just incorporate it? Or did I just not notice it until about a year back...
DrMike27 wrote:
Still doesn’t explain why you get rewarded with a draw for running out of time. Isn’t that the whole point of having a clock?
Why should you be rewarded for being unable to win by winning? If your opponent could just tell the game to execute random legal moves with no thought of their own and leave the game, why should you win because numbers on a clock ran out of them not physically moving in time?
ChessBerzurker wrote:
Think of your opponent. If he(she) is in the mating position, but looses on time, then it is unfair to them because besides time, they have the winning advantage.
Perhaps you misspoke, but the act of winning or establishing a winning advantage is not the reason, as you can still lose on time when about to checkmate. It is the inability to lose, not the eventual win, that is preserved here. The clock was yours to use for play, and running out of time has no more effect on you than what the worst gameplay scenario could develop, more or less. Immortality, not inevitability, is maintained.
WSama wrote:
Martin_Stahl wrote:
WSama wrote:
It's for the love of chess...
One more time: for the love chess (bass line)
😅 don't be mad. Sure, winning on time even though you haven't the slightest chance of mate is indeed a technical win, as far as the FIDE is concerne last I checked, but chess.com is not obliged to comply with the policies of any one chess federation. Any rules pertaining to the clock are not in fact official chess rules, they're house rules.
For FIDE it is only a win if mate is possible by any series of legal moves.
I wasn't aware of that. Is it a new rule, or did the site only just incorporate it? Or did I just not notice it until about a year back...
That has been a FIDE rule for a long time. For here, a variation of the USCF rules are used, where help mates are not considered. I was just clarifying that FIDE also requires mate be at least possible.
Thanks for the info. I used to think it was the site's own way of dealing with clock issues... well, in a way I guess it still is.
Howhorseymove wrote:
I am curious if anyone has ever had to apply the rule where someone feels that they have insufficient losing chances.
If I remember correctly, it is where a person has such overwhelming position that they can claim a draw rather a loss due to the time element.
An example would someone has 2 bishops and a Knight while the other person has only a pawn and king. The player with more pieces wants to claim a draw rather than a losing on the clock because even though the pawn could become a queen, they feel that their position is so strong that the pawn will never promote.
We had someone try to claim it in a tournament game but the position in that particular game seemed far from over and we gave the win to the player who still had time and the lost to the player whose click ran out even though it did seem that had a slight advantage.
If I remember correctly, it is where a person has such overwhelming position that they can claim a draw rather a loss due to the time element.
An example would someone has 2 bishops and a Knight while the other person has only a pawn and king. The player with more pieces wants to claim a draw rather than a losing on the clock because even though the pawn could become a queen, they feel that their position is so strong that the pawn will never promote.
We had someone try to claim it in a tournament game but the position in that particular game seemed far from over and we gave the win to the player who still had time and the lost to the player whose click ran out even though it did seem that had a slight advantage.
Overwhelming position to cause a draw? It is immortality, not an inevitable win if played properly, that keeps you from losing on time. If your opponent is physically incapable of winning as defined by the rules, then it is draw by insufficient material. A pawn can turn into a queen, take the bishops, and queen king a king into checkmate. What a player would do is not relevant, they are out of time.
Howhorseymove wrote:
I am curious if anyone has ever had to apply the rule where someone feels that they have insufficient losing chances.
If I remember correctly, it is where a person has such overwhelming position that they can claim a draw rather a loss due to the time element.
An example would someone has 2 bishops and a Knight while the other person has only a pawn and king. The player with more pieces wants to claim a draw rather than a losing on the clock because even though the pawn could become a queen, they feel that their position is so strong that the pawn will never promote.
We had someone try to claim it in a tournament game but the position in that particular game seemed far from over and we gave the win to the player who still had time and the lost to the player whose click ran out even though it did seem that had a slight advantage.
If I remember correctly, it is where a person has such overwhelming position that they can claim a draw rather a loss due to the time element.
An example would someone has 2 bishops and a Knight while the other person has only a pawn and king. The player with more pieces wants to claim a draw rather than a losing on the clock because even though the pawn could become a queen, they feel that their position is so strong that the pawn will never promote.
We had someone try to claim it in a tournament game but the position in that particular game seemed far from over and we gave the win to the player who still had time and the lost to the player whose click ran out even though it did seem that had a slight advantage.
That is only an option on time controls without delay/increment and it has to be claimed before time has run out.
You also have to clarify which rules you are using. Chess.com uses rules closest in line with USCF, though not exact. In Fide, K+B vs K+N wins on time.
Chess.com: K, K+N, K+B, and K+2N and opponent has no P are insufficient mating material no matter what.
USCF: same as chess.com EXCEPT you win if you can demonstrate mate is forced. Example: WKe6, WBh6, BKg8, BPh7, BPe7, and Black let's his clock run out. White wins as 1...Kh8 only legal move, then 2.Kf7, now any legal move (e6 or e5) allows 3.Bg7 mate.
FIDE: If any mate can be demonstrated by a legal set of moves, you win on time, if not, draw.
Examples where Black's clock runs out:
1) WKh1, WBg1, BNe7, BKh3. WIN! 1...Kh4 2.Kh2 Kh5 3.Kh3 Kh6 4.Kh4 Kh7 5.Kh5 Kh8 6.Kh6 Ng8+ 7.Kg6 Nf6 8.Bc5 Ng8 9.Bd6 Nf6 10.Bf8 Ng8 11.Bg7#
2) WKh1, WPh2, WRa8, WQf7, WRa6, BKh7, BPf4, BPe4, BBf3, BRg2. This is a draw as there is no legal way for White to win. Only legal move for Black is 1...Rg7, which is mate against the White King. Chess.com or USCF, white wins on time. FIDE is a draw if Black's clock falls.
KNOW YOUR RULES BASED ON WHERE YOU ARE PLAYING!
DrMike27 wrote:
5 min blitz game and I have a light square Bishop vs rook. Opponent times out and game was drawn as, “timeout vs insufficient material.” Has anyone ever heard of this rule before? Or am I just missing something...
In that scenario, you have sufficient material to almost mate, but not quite. The reason is because even though you might get your opponent to block his king into a corner with his rook, then you check with your bishop, it looks like mate, but the rook can interpose to block the check.
Your opponent. on the other hand, had sufficient material... so the game proceed until his clock expired. your best outcome was a draw, no matter what, so the game ended in a draw.