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How can you deliver checkmate with a king?

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KieferSmith
lfPatriotGames wrote:
MARattigan wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:
...

You mean your own personal interpretation. Common sense actually says the piece that checks causes checkmate. ...

This does seem to be an interminable argument.

Of course, in the absence of a definition of "the piece that causes checkmate" by a recognised body, anybody can, like Humpty Dumpty, have their own personal interpretation.

But it's definitely not common sense to say that the piece that checks causes checkmate.

Checkmate is a situation where the king of the player to move is in check and the player has no legal move. There's no sensible reason to restrict consideration only to the fact that the king is in check. On your basis one might just as well say that the checkmating piece in the following diagram is the Black pawn on d2, because that piece is causing Black to have no legal move.

Of course you could choose any piece other than the Black king, so the use of "the" would be questionable, but so is it in your interpretation. Which is the checkmating piece here?

I agree with @KieferSmith and @Arisktotle that the only interpretation that conforms with common sense is "the piece that last moved".

I understand. However, the rules speak of the enemy king under attack. The attack does not come from the piece that moved. The attack comes from the piece that checks.

The rules are silent on defining which piece delivers checkmate, they only speak to the attacking requirement, not HOW a piece came to be the attacking piece. A great example was provided by Keifer. The car that gets out of the way did not cause the collision did it? The car that collided with the other car caused it because it was the car that was going too fast.

It would be hard to find a reasonable (or common sense) interpretation that agrees the entity that gets out of the way is the party responsible.

Sometimes the checkmating piece is the piece that last moved, sometimes it isn't. It depends on if it's attacking the enemy kings square. I try not to insert my own interpretation into the rules, I'm not an arbitrator. I don't think it's a good idea to add things that aren't there, like "the last piece that moved". I just go by what the rules say. And the rules say checkmate is when the enemy kings square is attacked, and the king cannot escape. Only the attacking (checking) piece can do that. A piece that is not attacking the enemy kings square is not mentioned in the rules (there could be a dozen pieces that are not attacking the enemy kings square).

Although the rules imply the attacking piece is the checkmating piece (because it mentions that requirement) there is literally nothing in the rules that imply the last piece that moved is the checkmating piece. Literally nothing. If there is, could you tell me which rule that is?

THAT IS THE POSITION OF CHECKMATE NOT THE ACTION FOR CRYIN OUT LOUD

lfPatriotGames

The position of checkmate is achieved, according to the rules, when a piece ATTACKS the enemy kings square, and the king cannot escape. Attack is an action. The rules say both "attack" and "attacking". I think any reasonable person would agree those are action words. Or verbs.

Again, nobody is questioning which piece moves. But the attack, the ACTION, of checkmate, in our examples is not carried out by the piece that moves, the active checkmating piece is the discovered piece. The "position" of checkmate is not mentioned in the rules. But the "position" of checkmate ONLY happens because of the active, attacking piece that checks the enemy kings square.

lfPatriotGames

In these two examples, one is checkmate, the other check when the white king moves. The rules are the same for both, with the sole exception being enemy kings' ability to escape. Both positions rely on the "entire position" but of course there is no reason for that to be in the rules because it's irrelevant. The only relevant circumstances are attacking the enemy kings square, the enemy king, and the enemy king being able to escape. The white king plays no part in the circumstances required in the rules for check, or checkmate.

Arisktotle

Indeed, the rules speak of checkmate WHEN the position is achieved where the king is under attack and so on. The DELIVERY precedes the WHEN by making the final change which brings about that state of CHECKMATE. The DELIVERY is never about the state of CHECKMATE (or any state). It doesn't fill a gap in the rules, it is just part of our natural language to identify a particular action. And this text appears in both the USCF and the FIDE rule book in relation to several states: "the move that produces/delivers the CHECKMATE", "the move that produces/delivers CHECK" and "the move that produces/delivers STALEMATE". How do these sentences NOT refer to the LAST MOVE before the mentioned state was reached?

Once more, lfPatriotGames only writes fiction. Over and out!

lfPatriotGames
Arisktotle wrote:

Indeed, the rules speak of checkmate WHEN the position is achieved where the king is under attack and so on. The DELIVERY precedes the WHEN by making the final change which brings about that state of CHECKMATE. The DELIVERY is never about the state of CHECKMATE (or any state). It doesn't fill a gap in the rules, it is just part of our natural language to identify a particular action. And this text appears in both the USCF and the FIDE rule book in relation to several states: "the move that produces/delivers the CHECKMATE", "the move that produces/delivers CHECK" and "the move that produces/delivers STALEMATE". How do these sentences NOT refer to the LAST MOVE before the mentioned state was reached?

Once more, lfPatriotGames only writes fiction. Over and out!

Says who? You? You are not a rules authority. The RULES of chess, not you, state that checkmate is the attack on the enemy kings square from which there is no escape. The rules do not mention delivery, they do not mention when, they do not mention cause, they do not mention "entire position", etc. These are all things you have chosen to add to the rules. If you will notice, the only "fiction" is what you have chosen to add to the rules. My opinion is that the rules mean what they say. Nothing added, nothing subtracted.

Just the attack on the enemy kings square. And which piece attacks that square? The checking piece, or the piece that got out of the way of the checking piece? If the rules say anything about entire position, delivery, the piece that moves delivering checkmate, etc just say what rule that is. I will read it. Which rule are you quoting above?

intrinity_5

aehaehaehaeheaaeh

Arisktotle

Just as I thought. lfPatriotGames never read the rules. Try word-searches on "produce/deliver". And forget about the attacks. They occur (or not) as a result of the deliveries.

lfPatriotGames
Arisktotle wrote:

Just as I thought. lfPatriotGames never read the rules. Try word-searches on "produce/deliver". And forget about the attacks. They occur (or not) as a result of the deliveries.

I've already read and posted the rules concerning checkmate. Here they are again.

4. Objective and Scoring 
4A. Checkmate.
The objective of each of the two players in a game of chess is to win the game by checkmating the opponent’s king. 
A player’s king is checkmated when the square it occupies is attacked by one or more of the opponent’s pieces and 
the player has no move that escapes such attack. See also Rule 12, Check; 12C, Responding to check; and 13A,

That is the rule for checkmate. Notice what is required for checkmate. An ATTACK is required. So no, there is no reason to "forget about the attacks" since that's literally what a checkmate requires. Search the word attack. It's a verb. It's indicating action. Also notice there is no mention of the words "entire position", "cause", "delivery", etc. If you are aware of a different rule that mentions "deliver" I will read it. But so far you have not, so I will assume no such rule exists.

And I also posted definitions for the word "deliver". It has multiple meanings. Such as "to set free". Is the king moving setting the enemy king free? Probably not. Also "to take and hand over to or leave for another" What is the white king leaving or handing over to the rook? Probably checkmate. Also "to send (something aimed or guided) to an intended target". So tell me is the white king aimed or guided at the intended target? Or is the ROOK aimed at the intended target?

In the diagram above the king plays no part in the description or definition of checkmate. It's not an attacking piece in either check, or checkmate. As much as you might want it to be, it simply is not. The rules forbid a king to attack another king. The rules of chess, and the definition of the words used dictate that the rook delivers the checkmate, not the king.

Arisktotle

Ha, ha, ha! That's laughable. Complains that "delivery" is nowhere in the rules and then completely ignores the references given. As a reader you should attempt to understand a text as it is and it is very clear how the rules relate it to states such as checkmate, check and stalemate. And nowhere has delivery anything to do with the definition of those states. Those definitions are a 'given' fact and not a point of discussion.

superczarnyhetman

This is easy when you are playing with friend

lfPatriotGames
Arisktotle wrote:

Ha, ha, ha! That's laughable. Complains that delivery is nowhere in the rules and then completely ignores the references given. As a reader you should attempt to understand a text as it is and it is very clear how the rules relate it to states such as checkmate, check and stalemate. And nowhere has delivery anything to do with the definition of those states. Those definitions are a 'given' fact and not a point of discussion.

Nobody is complaining that delivery is nowhere in the rules. I've already copied the rules. If you are aware of a rule that mentions delivery, cause, entire position, etc just do the same. Either tell me the number of the rule, or copy the words from it.

I'm glad you agree that nowhere has delivery anything to do with the definition of those states. Because there would be no point to it. The king cannot deliver checkmate because it is not part of the checkmate. So it's excluded from delivering checkmate. The piece that delivers checkmate then must be a piece that's included in the "definition of those states". And what is included in the definition of checkmate? An ATTACK. In the diagram above, which piece is attacking, the king or the rook?

Arisktotle
lfPatriotGames wrote: ......

I told you you can do a word-search in the FIDE and USCF rules and I won't do that for you. I want to point out though that a "move delivers a state" and "a move produces a state" are the same thing as I have written before. Just get tired of repeating the alternatives all the time. The third alternative is the collapse of the state and the noun: "produces checkmate" becomes "checkmates" (verb) which gets you expressions such as "the move that checkmates". Those identify the same concept we are looking for in move delivery.

Though you deny it, you literally wrote "the rules do not mention delivery" (post #352). Delivery is nowhere in the state definitions because they define just the state, not its delivery. "Delivery" of a new game state - some of which have a name - happens like 100 times in a chess game.

In the last paragraph you write " The king cannot deliver checkmate because it is not part of the checkmate". It shows your basic confusion on "language". Nothing in a checkmate state ever delivers anything because "delivery" is motion while "state" is rest. It's a different phase. And it is the precise reason why the word "attack" is useful in state definitions. There is no motion only the description of a potential for a follow-up action which may never materialize (like a "king capture"). Read my earlier post on look-ahead states to understand how terminating a chess game makes it more complicated than board games like Draughts and Go.

intrinity_5

uwu

lfPatriotGames
Arisktotle wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote: ......

I told you you can do a word-search in the FIDE and USCF rules and I won't do that for you. I want to point out though that a "move delivers a state" and "a move produces a state" are the same thing as I have written before. Just get tired of repeating the alternatives all the time. The third alternative is the collapse of the state and the noun: "produces checkmate" becomes "checkmates" (verb) which gets you expressions such as "the move that checkmates". Those identify the same concept we are looking for in move delivery.

Though you deny it, you literally wrote "the rules do not mention delivery" (post #352). Delivery is nowhere in the state definitions because they define just the state, not its delivery. "Delivery" of a new game state - some of which have a name - happens like 100 times in a chess game.

In the last paragraph you write " The king cannot deliver checkmate because it is not part of the checkmate". It shows your basic confusion on "language". Nothing in a checkmate state ever delivers anything because "delivery" is motion while "state" is rest. It's a different phase. And it is the precise reason why the word "attack" is useful in state definitions. There is no motion only the description of a potential for a follow-up action which may never materialize (like a "king capture"). Read my earlier post on look-ahead states to understand how terminating a chess game makes it more complicated than board games like Draughts and Go.

Yes, I literally wrote "the rules do not mention delivery". Because they don't. We are talking about the rules concerning checkmate. Maybe delivery is mentioned elsewhere in the rules, I don't know. But I do know you haven't provided such a rule so it probably doesn't exist otherwise you would have been very eager to show just how wrong I am. But you haven't.

Again, in the diagram above, which piece produces, or delivers, the attack on the enemy king? The king, or the rook? I know you don't want to answer because you would have to say rook. Obviously the king is not attacking the king because that's against the rules.

I've read the rules, but I easily could have missed one that describes the moving piece as being the one that carries out or delivers the check (or checkmate). If there is such a rule then I am wrong. It wouldn't be the first time. The only rule I've read concerning checkmate is the one that describes attacking the enemy kings square. Which, in our examples, the king does not do.

lfPatriotGames

PS: As far as I know both "delivery" and "attack" are verbs. They indicate motion. The rules probably mention the action of attack because there is no other way to describe it. They do not say "potential for a follow up action" because the rules don't allow it. You cannot capture the king. Although I think the rules used to allow capturing the enemy king.

So let me ask you another question you probably won't be able to answer. If you believe the action, or motion of "attack" described in the rules for checkmate mean something different, what would they mean if the king was allowed to be captured?

Right now the last action of a chess game that ends in checkmate is the attack on the enemy kings square. But what if it wasn't? What if, in the example above, the white king moving out of the way allowed the discovered check by the white rook which could capture the black king? Would the white king moving out of the way still be the piece that delivers checkmate in your opinion?

Waterstone33

Summary of this forum so far:

Checkmate is when the king cannot escape check. You cannot deliver checkmate with a king alone, but the king can move out of the way for a discovered checkmate or castle. The king isn't delivering checkmate, but if the king hadn't moved, there would have been no checkmate. If this discovered checkmate counts is what is currently up for debate.

lfPatriotGames
Waterstone33 wrote:

Summary of this forum so far:

Checkmate is when the king cannot escape check. You cannot deliver checkmate with a king alone, but the king can move out of the way for a discovered checkmate or castle. The king isn't delivering checkmate, but if the king hadn't moved, there would have been no checkmate. If this discovered checkmate counts is what is currently up for debate.

Absolutely. There is no question if the king hadn't moved, the checkmate would not have happened. The question is if the piece that moves delivers checkmate, or the piece that attacks the enemy kings square delivers checkmate. Often they are the same, but like you said, in a discovered check they usually aren't.

I think the chess.com award for the killer king makes perfect sense. It's a rare achievement to move the king and have that result in a discovered checkmate.

I understand the reason people want to believe the last piece that moves must be the one that delivers checkmate (because usually it is). But after reading the rules I had to change my mind on that. I had to accept that it's the piece that attacks the enemy kings square that is the final act of checkmate.

intrinity_5

azehaeeheaeahaheaeaeeahahehaeaaheaaehaaehhaehaeh

Arisktotle

@lfPatriotGames: You live in language and understand none of it because you lost the reality-connection. The deliveries are about the reality of motion on the chessboard not about words and dictionaries. Put a camera on it and you will see nothing move when a king is under attack and you will see motion when the checkmate is produced/delivered. Even on a digital screen you will see change when the checkmate is delivered though that is obviously not the frame of reference for the rules.

Ha, ha, you continue looking for delivery in the rules for checkmate while the whole point of the discussion is that deliveries are not specific to checkmates and not part of state definitions. And they are only mentioned in the rules to identify a particular phase in the game but clearly not ever to define a state! Our reason to invoke those terms is to make the connection to e.g. the killer king award which is of course not in the rules because the rules don't need it to define the game of chess. FIDE and USCF have their own uses for delivery and production in the rules - like stating that the move producing the checkmate state must be a legal one - pretty obvious if you ask me. But, it does confirm that moves produce checkmates - in their legal chess contexts.

lfPatriotGames
Arisktotle wrote:

@lfPatriotGames: You live in language and understand none of it because you lost the reality-connection. The deliveries are about the reality of motion on the chessboard not about words and dictionaries. Put a camera on it and you will see nothing move when a king is under attack and you will see motion when the checkmate is produced/delivered. Even on a digital screen you will see change when the checkmate is delivered though that is obviously not the frame of reference for the rules.

Ha, ha, you continue looking for delivery in the rules for checkmate while the whole point of the discussion is that deliveries are not specific to checkmates and not part of state definitions. And they are only mentioned in the rules to identify a particular phase in the game but clearly not ever to define a state! Our reason to invoke those terms is to make the connection to e.g. the killer king award which is of course not in the rules because the rules don't need it to define the game of chess. FIDE and USCF have their own uses for delivery and production in the rules - like stating that the move producing the checkmate state must be a legal one - pretty obvious if you ask me. But, it does confirm that moves produce checkmates - in their legal chess contexts.

I'm kind of disappointed. When I asked your opinion on the most recent diagram you were not able to offer anything. I asked if the white king were to move, which piece delivers, or produces, the attack on the enemy kings square. Is it the king, or the rook?

Normally at least one person would notice something about that. And I would expect you would be the first to notice. It makes me think you never even looked.

As I said, the rules include the word "attack" when defining checkmate because there is no other way to describe it. The rules also currently do not allow capturing the king, so the attack is the very last act of the game. If capturing the enemy king WERE allowed would you still believe the piece moving out of the way (in this case the king) is the piece that delivers checkmate?