According to Basic Chess Endings (I know, I'm of the old school), it's usually a draw, with only a few winning positions (basically when K+R are both on the first rank).
Question...Is Rook and Knight vs Rook a draw?
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I faced a similar position when I found myself left only with a rook whereas my opponent had a pawn also in addition to a rook and a knight. Eventually the game went on to a draw. (It was the only draw that I had, and can be witnessed through my recent games.)
I will vote in favour of DRAW.
May 15, 2009
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#4
It IS a draw with a few exceptions of course. With the obvious one being the knight separated from the king. There is at least one other case which I can not remember off the top of my head
May 15, 2009
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#5
damn it I am dumb....I didn't even notice both sides have a rook. I don't know in that case.
erikido23 wrote:
damn it I am dumb....I didn't even notice both sides have a rook. I don't know in that case.
Yes strange answers lol he hes talking R+N vs R It should be a draw with best play but I would hate to be on the weaker side in this one!
May 15, 2009
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#7
mschosting wrote:
erikido23 wrote:
damn it I am dumb....I didn't even notice both sides have a rook. I don't know in that case.
Yes strange answers lol he hes talking R+N vs R It should be a draw with best play but I would hate to be on the weaker side in this one!
I would agree. But, I am sure there would be several exceptions to that rule. You have to be wary of variations of anastasias mate in addition to the obvious threat of forks.
erikido23 wrote:
anastasias mate
Funny, I was under the impression that Anatasia's mate was another pattern...
As for R+N vs R, I'm pretty sure it's usually a draw, but there's always exceptions.
AnthonyCG wrote:
No but its freakishly hard to win. You have to attack the knight until it becomes corraled. Sounds easy right :/ R+B vs R is usually a draw though. Of course position counts. Hope this helps some.
It's R+N vs R, not R vs N.
It is a draw in general. The win is possible only if the defending king is trapped near an edge of the board. Kasparov managed once a win against Judith Polgar:
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1070866
Not exactly what you are looking for, but from George Atkinson's interesting book from 1998: Chess and Machine Intuition. You can preview on Google Books.
May 15, 2009
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#15
Excellent. Thanks for all the responses. And erikido...thanks for showing me this mate...it's lovely.
May 15, 2009
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#16
According to "Fundamental Chess Endings" Muller & Lamprecht (Gambit Publications 2001).
"In many games the draw was immediately agreed until Kasparov created some upset by defeating Judit Polgar in 1996. In our view, this ending is worth playing on if the defending king is confined near the edge. Indeed, if it should happen to be in the corner, the winning chances are high." Page 295.
Below are the moves of the game; White's 70th move is the mistake? Enjoy the game
Polgar,Ju (2675) - Kasparov,G (2775) [B82]
Dos Hermanas, 1996
[Kasparov,G]
66/203 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.f4 e6 7.Qf3 Qb6 8.a3 Nc6 9.Nxc6 bxc6 10.b3 Bb7 11.Bb2 d5 12.Bd3N [12.0–0–0 - 62/261] 12...c5 13.exd5 exd5 14.0–0–0 [14.Qe2+!?] 14...0–0–0 15.Na4 Qc7 16.Bf5+ [16.Be5 Bd6 17.Rhe1 Rhe8÷] 16...Kb8 17.Be5 Bd6 18.Qc3?! d4! 19.Bxd6 [19.Qxc5? Bxc5 20.Bxc7+ Kxc7 21.Nxc5 Rd5 22.Nxb7 Rxf5–+] 19...Qxd6 20.Qxc5 Qxf4+ 21.Kb1 Rd5 22.Rdf1? [22.Rhf1 Qxh2 23.Qb4³ (23.Qe7 Qc7µ) ] 22...Qe5 23.Qc4 Rb5! 24.Qxf7?! [24.Rf2 g6 25.Bh3 (25.Bd3? Bd5–+) 25...Ne4 26.Re2 f5µ] 24...Bd5! [24...Bxg2 25.Bd3 Rb7 26.Qc4„] 25.Qxg7 Rg8 26.Qh6 Bxb3! [26...Bxg2? 27.Bd3 Bxh1 28.Rxf6 Rg1+ 29.Kb2 (29.Ka2!?) 29...Qe1 30.Bf1!? Bb7 31.Qf4+±] 27.cxb3 Rxb3+ 28.Kc1 [28.Ka2 Qd5! (28...Rxg2+ 29.Bc2™ Qe6!? 30.Qf8+ Ne8 31.Rb1 Rxc2+ 32.Ka1 Ka7µ) 29.g3 Rf3+ 30.Ka1 Rxa3+–+; 28.Nb2 Rxb2+! 29.Kxb2 Rxg2+ 30.Kc1 (30.Bc2 d3+–+) 30...Qc5+ 31.Kd1 Nd5 32.Rf3 Ne3+ 33.Rxe3 dxe3–+; 28.Ka1 d3+ 29.Ka2 Rxg2+ 30.Kxb3 Qd5+ 31.Kb4 a5+ 32.Kc3 Rc2#] 28...Qc7+! 29.Bc2 [29.Kd1 d3! (29...Nd5 30.Qe6 (30.Rf2 Ne3+ 31.Kd2 Nxf5–+) 30...Rd8! 31.Rf3 (31.Rf2 d3) 31...d3! 32.Bxd3 (32.Rxd3 Rb1+ 33.Kd2 Rxh1 34.Rxd5 (34.Nc3 Nxc3 35.Rxd8+ Qxd8+ 36.Kxc3 Rc1+–+) 34...Qc1+ 35.Ke2 Re1+–+) 32...Rxa3µ) 30.Qc1 (30.Qf4 Rb1+ 31.Kd2 Rxg2+ 32.Kxd3 Qxf4 33.Rxf4 Rxh1–+) 30...Rxg2 31.Nc5 (31.Qxc7+ Kxc7 32.Nc3 Rxc3 33.Bh3 Rb2 34.Rxf6 Rcc2–+) 31...Qe5 32.Be4 (32.Re1 Qxf5 33.Nxa6+ Ka7 34.Re7+ Nd7–+) 32...Rc2 33.Nxa6+ Kc8 34.Bf5+ Kd8–+] 29...d3! [29...Rxg2 30.Qf8+ Ka7 31.Qc5+ Qxc5 32.Nxc5 Rc3 33.Rxf6 Rxc5 34.Re1„] 30.Qf4 Rc8 31.Qxc7+ Rxc7 32.Rf2 Ne4? [32...dxc2! 33.Rxc2 Rxa3 34.Nc5! Rxc5 35.Rxc5 Ra1+ 36.Kb2 (36.Kd2 Rxh1 37.Rc6 Ne4+ 38.Ke3 Kb7–+) 36...Rxh1 37.Rc6 Ng8!–+ (37...Ng4 38.h3 Kb7 39.Re6 Nf2µ) ] 33.Rf8+ Ka7 34.Rf7 Rbb7 35.Rxc7 Rxc7 (¦ 9/h) 36.Rd1 Rxc2+ 37.Kb1 Rxg2 38.Rxd3 Rxh2 39.Rd7+ Kb8 40.Re7 Nd2+ 41.Kc1 [41.Kc2!? Nc4+ 42.Kd3 Nxa3 43.Nc5„] 41...Nb3+ 42.Kd1 h5 43.Re3 Nd4 44.Nc5 a5 [44...h4 45.Nxa6+ Ka7 46.Nc5 h3 47.Ne4 Rh1+ 48.Re1=] 45.Nb3 Nc6 46.Rc3 Kb7 47.Ke1 Kb6 48.Kf1 Rh4 49.Kg2 Nd4 50.Nxa5! [50.Nxd4 Rxd4µ] 50...Kxa5 51.Rc5+ Kb6 52.Re5 Kc6 53.Kg3 Rh1 54.Kg2 Kd6 [54...Rg1+ 55.Kf2 h4 56.Re4=] 55.Ra5 Rh4 56.Kg3 Rg4+ 57.Kh3 Ne2 58.Rxh5 Rg3+ 59.Kh4 Rxa3= [¦ 8/f1] 60.Kg4 Ke6 61.Rb5 [61.Rh3] 61...Rg3+ 62.Kh4 Rg1 63.Rg5 Rf1 64.Ra5 Kf6 65.Ra8 Rg1 66.Rf8+ Ke5 67.Re8+ Kf4 68.Rf8+ Ke4 69.Re8+ Kf3 70.Kh5 Ng3+ 71.Kh6 [71.Kg5 Ne4+ 72.Kh6] 71...Nf5+ 72.Kh7 Kf4 73.Rb8 Rg7+ 74.Kh8 Rd7 75.Re8 [75.Ra8] 75...Kg5 76.Re6 Nd4 77.Re1 Kf6 78.Rd1 Rd5 79.Ra1? [79.Rf1+™ =] 79...Ne6!–+ 80.Ra6 Kf7 81.Ra7+ Kg6 82.Ra8 Rd7 [82...Rd6! 83.Kg8 Ng5 84.Kf8 Re6 85.Kg8 Nh7 86.Rb8 Re7–+] 83.Rb8 Rc7 84.Kg8 Rc5 85.Ra8 Rb5 86.Kh8 Rb7 [86...Rb6!] 87.Rc8 Nc7 88.Rg8+ Kh6™ 89.Rg1? [89.Rc8 Ne6 90.Kg8 Kg6 91.Kh8 Rb6–+; 89.Rf8 Rb6!–+ (89...Nd5 90.Rf6+!) ] 89...Rb8+ 90.Rg8 Ne8 [90...Ne8 91.Rf8 Kg6 92.Rg8+ Kf7] 0–1
May 15, 2009
0
#17
AnthonyCG wrote:
dmeng wrote:
AnthonyCG wrote:
No but its freakishly hard to win. You have to attack the knight until it becomes corraled. Sounds easy right :/ R+B vs R is usually a draw though. Of course position counts. Hope this helps some.
It's R+N vs R, not R vs N.
And your point? I am well aware and have seen R+N win against R and draw. Chill out. Have a cookie :)
The point is that your original post makes no sense. :-)
"You have to attack the knight until it becomes corraled." This only applies to trying to win R v N.
May 15, 2009
0
#18
I believe Eduard Gufeld won one of these way back, which turned popular opinion towards the idea that it was a win. I agree.
May 15, 2009
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#19
Nope it's a draw in general.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pawnless_chess_endgames
I'm sure this can be independently confirmed by someone with an endgame tablebase.
With best play...is Rook + Knight vs Rook a draw or a win for the Rook + Knight?