You wanna study an opening for black that hardly no one knows? Learn the latvian (e4 e5 Nf3 f5)
No one uses or knows this but its fun as hell
Pitiful play against the Ponziani
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Even if it's a losing position, i wouldn't resign cuz your opponent is not a 2800 rated GM so he could blunder, however that's kinda disrespectful. I just wouldn't resign and try to play for a draw or spot any mistakes
I go Qd6 to throw them off... Always look for high win rate moves that are like 3rd-4th most common in the early opening of something like Ponziani.
Ponziani is bad, but you should try to throw them out of book fast rather than being very greedy because they've obviously studied main lines if the play Ponziani...
So i'll stick with Finegold and say 4. f6 is too scary to play, and build my defense around ..4 Qd6 etc
---as for your specific game indeed as you pointed out 8. Na5! is very strong try to memorize that, it's a well known tactical Pattern: if you can fork the queen and a bishop with a knight it's usually good. it's especially good when your knight is not great but opponent's Bishop is central to his play. 8. Na5 allows a check on f7 with 9. Bf7+ but calculate further here, the queen must continue to defend the Bishop, right?... (..9 Ke7 still attacks the Bishop and the Queen has to move, so 10. Qd5 c6! 11. Qxa5 Kxf7 and Black is comfortable)
So allowing the check, that's one principle should calculate if worth breaking, but also to find Na5 you must be willing to move the knight twice and leave your other knight undeveloped but here's why it's possible to find:
the Ponziani (and other dubious and aggressive openings) is very sharp, so if your opponent wasted a move (with his Queen, which moved twice), that's a sign you can consider moving in turn one of your pieces twice, "punishing" white's time wasting. That's how delicate these openings are - one tempo matters... So if your opponent who is supposed to be pressing wastes a move that's a red flag.
After 8. Na5! The tactics work out for Black, after Qa4+ there is Bd7 with tempo (unlike in your game where Bd7 came without purpose), and after Qxa5 theres a nice Qxc4+ !
Hi, Paul. I know I'm late to the party but I'll give my two cents regardless. I also have not looked at a database or engine.
- I think I would play 3…Nf6 myself. It provokes the inane 4.d3?! which leaves white with a Giuco Piano pawn structure, but his light-squared bishop is passive. Gotta be good for Black, right? Maybe White would try 4.Bd3 but in this case 4…d5!? looks dangerous for White, with the idea of 5.exd5 e4 6.dxc6 exd3. Most likely White should play 6.Qe2! to try to prevent this.
- GM Finegold would reply that if f7-f6 is the best move then you messed up somewhere else. But, yes, clearly it is forced here.
- My first instinct against 6.Bc4 would be 6…Qa5!, virtually forcing White to release the pin. If he maintains it (7.Bb5/b3 Qxa4 8.Bxa4) then 8…Bd7 followed by long castling looks very comfortable for Black. And if White simply retreats the queen, then your own queen is most likely not offsides on a5.
- 6…Qe4+ does force White to drop his castling rights, but there isn't a clear, active follow-up against the king. Meanwhile you set up tactics against yourself as you found out the hard way.
- 9…Bd7 seeing this move made me think of that meme of the dog sipping tea while the house is on fire. I understand the idea is to castle long, but it definitely lacks a sense of urgency. Black's position is saddled with debits: the knight on h6 is needed to cover f7, the light squared bishop is needed to defend the queen, the kingside pawns need structural babysitting to give the same queen an out in case it gets harassed… it's a mess. You need to either play more actively or work to solve these debits. 9…Bf5 is probably still wrong but at least represents an awareness that Black is in "fight-like-a-wounded-honey-badger" mode. Maybe 9…Qh5, not with the idea of defending the knight, but with the idea of over-protecting f7 to try to clear up some of these debits. The queen is just a little safer and now the knight on h6 is free to move or get traded off.
- 12…exd4? What? Opening lines in the center against our exposed king!? Try keeping things closed with 12…e4. It makes White's job a little more difficult.
- after 28.Qf3: you have two priority goals in this position: (1) get the king relatively safe and (2) get the rook out. The king needs to make it to b7 to have a hope of achieving either of these goals, and long term you probably want to play a7-a6 and put the king on a7. In either case you need to blockade the pawn on d5 to prevent White from gaining control of the b7-square. As unattractive as 28…Bd6 29.Nf5 is, it was necessary, at least from the perspective of fighting chess. 28…Rc8 kills the mobility of your king (not only needed to accomplish the afore-mentioned goals but also because generally a mobile king is harder to checkmate) and therefore ensures that the rook will also never see the game. A quick checkmate should be expected after such an awkward move.
Hope that helps. God be with thee!
forsoothplays wrote:
- GM Finegold would reply that if f7-f6 is the best move then you messed up somewhere else. But, yes, clearly it is forced here.
It's clear that 4...f6 is far from being forced. 4...Bd7, 4...Nf6, 4...Qd6 are playable, and good.
Queen d6 appears to be the best move by black.
Difficult to find though.!
I normally just go 4…Bd7, (obviously 4…f6 as you played is a main move as well and has been recommended by Gustafsson) the game then invariably continues 5.exd5 Nd4 6.Qd1 Nxf3+ 7.Qxf3 Nf6 and I feel practically speaking Black already has a very decent position with Two Knights style compensation (you’re already threatening…Bg4 and …Qxd5 for example.)
3…Nf6 definitely equalises as well but I find 3…d5 gives white more chances to go wrong such as the limp 4.exd5 or even 4.Bb5 which is downright bad, probably even just losing.
JamesColeman wrote:
I normally just go 4…Bd7, (obviously 4…f6 as you played is a main move as well and has been recommended by Gustafsson) the game then invariably continues 5.exd5 Nd4 6.Qd1 Nxf3+ 7.Qxf3 Nf6 and I feel practically speaking Black already has a very decent position with Two Knights style compensation (you’re already threatening…Bg4 and …Qxd5 for example.)
3…Nf6 definitely equalises as well but I find 3…d5 gives white more chances to go wrong such as the limp 4.exd5 or even 4.Bb5 which is downright bad, probably even just losing.
Since the Ponziani is met once in a blue moon, the most practical way to meet it is transposing to the Goring gambit and kill two birds with a stone (1.e4 e5 2.Nf4 Nc6 3.c3 Nf6 4.d4 exd4, or 3.d4 exd4 4.c3 Nf6) when Black is equal after 5.e5 Ne4, although 5...Nd5 is fine as well (and it was played in a game between two World Champions, with Black winning the game).
ChrisZifo wrote:
Queen d6 appears to be the best move by black.
Difficult to find though.!
I found this move OTB and then I later discovered there is alot of nice games in the database with good win % so I stuck with it... btw engine says it's 3rd best but I think it's best
Mazetoskylo wrote:
JamesColeman wrote:
I normally just go 4…Bd7, (obviously 4…f6 as you played is a main move as well and has been recommended by Gustafsson) the game then invariably continues 5.exd5 Nd4 6.Qd1 Nxf3+ 7.Qxf3 Nf6 and I feel practically speaking Black already has a very decent position with Two Knights style compensation (you’re already threatening…Bg4 and …Qxd5 for example.)
3…Nf6 definitely equalises as well but I find 3…d5 gives white more chances to go wrong such as the limp 4.exd5 or even 4.Bb5 which is downright bad, probably even just losing.
Since the Ponziani is met once in a blue moon, the most practical way to meet it is transposing to the Goring gambit and kill two birds with a stone (1.e4 e5 2.Nf4 Nc6 3.c3 Nf6 4.d4 exd4, or 3.d4 exd4 4.c3 Nf6) when Black is equal after 5.e5 Ne4, although 5...Nd5 is fine as well (and it was played in a game between two World Champions, with Black winning the game).
ah ah this Goring Gambit always gets me btw if you can recommend how to deal with it please share
TheSonics wrote:
ChrisZifo wrote:
Queen d6 appears to be the best move by black.
Difficult to find though.!
I found this move OTB and then I later discovered there is alot of nice games in the database with good win % so I stuck with it... btw engine says it's 3rd best but I think it's best
When you look at the database, it is best to look at the best GM moves first. Sometimes the best engine moves are just so insane that no human could ever play them.
The Ponziani is one of those openings that is rarely seen, which is why my opponent played it against me. Neither one of us knew the theory, and I think I got out of the opening OK, but I was outplayed badly in the middlegame. My opponent had already beaten me in each of our two OTB games, and was rated some 300 points above me, so I was pessimistic before the game even started. I would like to know if I could have played the opening better, what my mistakes were in the middlegame that caused me to have such a bad position, and whether there was any way to save my lost position. This was an OTB game, 90 minutes with a 10 second delay. When I resigned, I had 37 minutes left and my opponent had 13 minutes left. I have not done the computer analysis or looked at an opening database.