Global warming - an urgent problem requiring radical solution (no politics or religion)
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Do you know of something called Reddit?
mpaetz wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:
mpaetz wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:
mpaetz wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:
RonaldJosephCote wrote:
Which probably explains the difference between PatrotGames, & mpaetz. Olive trees can mature in 5 yrs in the Oregon area, but take 10 yrs in Greece because of their climate & weather patterns.
That is exactly right. Olive trees can be productive in as little as 3 years. There is an olive farm not too far from here, on the way to the coast. Our climate is often similar to parts of Europe. Which is why Oregon, and Turkey are the biggest hazelnut producers on earth. That is probably also why wine is so big in Oregon.
Our olive production is very small, but growing. I assume it's because our climate is conducive to growing olives. But we see a very wide range of temperatures, often above 100 degrees in the summer, to sometimes a week or more of sub freezing in the winter. Olives are hardy, and can handle reasonable extremes. It seems likely our olives mature faster because it's warmer here, for longer, than it is in the Mediterranean.
I have no doubt Mpaetzs comments about declining olive production are true, but not necessarily for ONLY the reasons he mentioned. Often a farm will take out a crop in favor of something more profitable. Zoning can influence farming decisions, etc. But even if we make the assumption that climate change is the ONLY reason for declining production, that is obviously offset by other locations (like here in Oregon) that are capable of and are experiencing an increase in production of that same crop.
There are currently about 50 acres of olive trees in Oregon. Durant Vineyards at Red Mill Farm has the only mill in the state to mill the olives for oil, and they have to import olives from California to make enough for wholesalers to find dealing with them worthwhile. Paul Durant reports that he sometimes loses a goodly number of trees when there is an extended winter frost, and he is regularly tearing out trees that don't do well and trying out new varieties.
Olive trees in Oregon produce less fruit/acre than California trees, which are less productive than Spanish, Greek, and Italian orchards.
The last two years of olive harvests in Spain each produced less than 775,000 tons of olive oil, compared with an average of over 1,000,000 tons for the previous five years. Heavier rains this year are projected to raise the yield to nearly 1,400,000. If it was "other factors" rather than drought that caused the decline, how can there be such an increase now?
That of course is false. I've personally seen more than 50 acres of olives here in Oregon.
The point is that where olive (or any other crop) might be dwindling, other places take up the slack. If climate is changing to reduce yields in one area, it's also changing to increase yields in another area.
The 50 acre figure was mentioned in the 2022 interview with Paul Durant. The Olea Project at the College of Agricultural Sciences at Oregon State University reports that as of 2024 there are less than 100 acres of productive olive trees in the state of Oregon.
Oregon will not make up for the loss of production in areas that account for 95% of global olive harvests. Olive harvests in Oregon are iffy, as olive trees do not blossom until late June and harvest can't take place until mid-November at the earliest, meaning an early frost or snowfall can destroy much of the crop. Also, most olive trees in Oregon have been planted by tearing out grapevines or hazelnut trees, so there is little or no increase in food production.
The idea that when climate change eliminates crop viability in some areas the warming will boost production in other areas sufficiently to keep the global food supply steady seems pretty chancey. It also fails to take into account the populations in the adversely affected areas. Will they be moving to those more fertile areas? When rising seas cause flooding and saltwater intrusion in delta farmland in South Asia that currently feed hundreds of millions of people will it be OK for 20 million or so to come to the Columbia River valley to take advantage of the warmer climate and higher plant growth there?
I wouldn't doubt there are less than 500 acres of olives in Oregon. But the point is, an outright lie claiming there are only 50 just proves again that some people cannot be trusted. If you don't know something, just say you don't know. Repeating something you have no idea about as if it were fact just re-enforces the idea that one side of this issue can't be trusted.
To answer your last question, yes. If seas rise, even if it takes hundreds of years, a growing population will have to deal with it. If that means moving to where conditions are better, then that's what they will do. If crop production in one area of the world declines, but conditions favor an increase in another area, it's pretty reasonable to assume that other area will take advantage of that.
I would imagine during previous ice ages when conditions changed not too many stayed to fight the climate change. They moved. If conditions were more favorable for acquiring food in a warmer climate, I'll bet that's where the food eaters went.
If you want to chastise people for "lying" start with the Oregon olive grower that came up with the 50 acre figure. Then note that OSU says there are still less than 100 acres today. Apparently you are trying to deceive us by suggesting there are likely five times as much. Deliberate falsehoods shouldn't be tolerated?
Your comical idea that climate change will happen over many centuries as it has naturally in the past is contradicted by virtually all scientific assessments. Again, when hundreds of millions of people are displaced and the agricultural lands that feed them rendered infertile how many millions will the (supposedly) amazingly more productive Oregon welcome in?
Because I didn't repeat the lie. You did. If you don't know, just say you don't know. That's the problem with the internet. People read something and assume it's true, with little to no firsthand knowledge. I agree, deliberate falsehoods should not be tolerated.
I already answered your second question, but I'll answer it again. As many people as it takes. I don't make the rules, I don't determine how people migrate. But if or when climate changes (as it has in the past) it seems reasonable to assume people will move or adapt. If people want to move away from non-productive areas, like deserts or arctic regions and move TO areas that are more productive I imagine that's what they will do.
Right now the trend seems to be moving from cold areas to warm areas. It seems like the population of the earth is highest where it's warm to hot. And lowest where it's cool to cold.
Elroch wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:
Elroch wrote:
I have no idea who these completely unspecified people are and I am not very interested. I am only interested in what is scientifically true, and the majority of those in positions of power are only interested in using the scientific facts to guide their policy making.
I have to call your bluff and point out that you have never heard anyone with any standing at all ever describe an average day as "near record". Literally the only person I have ever seen do so in my life is YOU. Even basic competence stops people doing that sort of thing.
I don't play poker so I don't know the response to calling bluff. But I have to agree with Ukace as I have ALSO seen on my weather app ridiculous claims. They often get it very wrong. It will have the little warning icon pop up about dangerous weather today. Dangerous meaning a quarter inch of rain and winds gusting to 20mph. Or when they say "near record" cold or heat. But hopefully you are right. Hopefully they are just clickbait artists and have no "standing".
While it is obviously possible for an app to be wrong - anyone can publish one - I think it is more likely that you are not telling the truth (software developers are generally speaking much more rational than you).
So, prove it.
[It has to be observed that what some non-authoritative app says about the weather is entirely irrelevant to this discussion].
Today parts of the UK are expected to see 150 mm of rain and some flooding. That's quite extreme weather, meriting warnings by the highly proficient Met Office.
I have no idea what "authoritative" is supposed to be. Ukace was just noticing that there is a lot of alarmism going on. And I agreed. I gave some examples where the descriptions of the weather is highly exaggerated. If that's not alarmism I don't know what is. Some people rely on weather forecasts, so I suppose in some sense they are authoritative.
If you want proof, I am not your source. As I've said many times, what you discover on your own is MUCH better than what I provide. Because there is a built in skepticism. You are not objective. So what I say you will not weigh the same to you as it would if someone else said it.
So look it up yourself. Oregons "bomb cyclone" from a few weeks ago. Some places got a lot of rain. It just so happens we did not. Now, when I think of a "cyclone" I think of 20 inches of rain. Maybe 10 inches of rain. Certainly not ONE inch or rain, or even less. Like I said, maybe where you live people don't exaggerate simply for the sake of being alarmist. But it happens here a lot.
1 day ago
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#27145
EndgameEnthusiast2357 wrote:
Wednesday was supposed to be 1 of those days, "dangerous flooding rain, avoid unnecessary travel",
I bet it was rather that there was a high risk of such (potentially lethal) dangers.
You can find an explanation of the statistical risks of warnings that you have never read before at https://www.weather.gov/okx/wwa_definitions
There are surely some people that don't understand that forecasts of 50% chance of something happening can be expected to be wrong half the time, and this does not invalidate the forecasts (because they are about RISKS).
can you play chess there?
marinn135 wrote:
Do you know of something called Reddit?
Why? Yes
Bill Gate's new Netflix documentary on GCC ("What's Next," 2024) delves into the same issues. Try watching it?
For some, that movie might induce changes in your keystrokes above? Or not.
Hope Springs Eternal.
marinn135 wrote:
Why are you guys discussing this on chess otf of all things!
It's not "chess off topic" it's chess, and off topic. Separate. They made the off topic forums for a purpose. You can start to divine what that is by understanding the phrase "off topic".
When you are having a conversation at your school and somebody says "by the way, I got in a car accident this morning", do you suggest they leave the school and go find a mechanic's hangout or something in order to speak about it?
Reddit is useful if want ask questions on obscure topics and want to find someone that can answer it. As a discussion platform, it is no better or worse than your average PHP messageboard. The average reddit group is pretty surface level.
Quite the tragedy in Georgia. 12 people found dead inside a building at a ski resort a couple days ago. Allegedly a power generator was left turn on. Which is never a good idea indoors. The power goes out all the time in warmer climates too. But I wonder how often indoor carbon monoxide poisoning happens in colder climates compared to warmer climates.
marinn135 wrote:
Do you know of something called Reddit?
Don't wanna be in an echo chamber, thank you very much.
1 day ago
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#27152
654Psyfox wrote:
marinn135 wrote:
Do you know of something called Reddit?
Don't wanna be in an echo chamber, thank you very much.
NAH
EndgameEnthusiast2357 wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:
Quite the tragedy in Georgia. 12 people found dead inside a building at a ski resort a couple days ago. Allegedly a power generator was left turn on. Which is never a good idea indoors. The power goes out all the time in warmer climates too. But I wonder how often indoor carbon monoxide poisoning happens in colder climates compared to warmer climates.
It's not just the stoves/generators. It's that people have to seal their houses up tight to deal with the dangerous cold, like we put weather stripping on our windows. So no ventilation to help diffuse the gas. 2 days later this week the lows are gonma drop to 17-19 degrees, a state of emergency should really be declared.
...and thus we see the true nature of an "alarmist".
The solution is not to allow global warming, it's to pay attention in science class.
EndgameEnthusiast2357 wrote:
lfPatriotGames wrote:
Quite the tragedy in Georgia. 12 people found dead inside a building at a ski resort a couple days ago. Allegedly a power generator was left turn on. Which is never a good idea indoors. The power goes out all the time in warmer climates too. But I wonder how often indoor carbon monoxide poisoning happens in colder climates compared to warmer climates.
It's not just the stoves/generators. It's that people have to seal their houses up tight to deal with the dangerous cold, like we put weather stripping on our windows. So no ventilation to help diffuse the gas. 2 days later this week the lows are gonma drop to 17-19 degrees, a state of emergency should really be declared.
I just briefly searched for information on the trusty ol' internet about CO poisoning as it relates to temperatures. Since they say CO poisoning is the leading cause of poison deaths in the world it probably seems pretty relevant.
A bunch of researchers in Taiwan conducted a study and concluded that "temperature was significantly associated with the incidence of acute CO poisoning". Largely for the reasons you mentioned. People are cold, they seal their windows and doors up tight, and then they burn something indoors to stay warm.
I lost track of how many reasons all of us came up with as to why warmer climates are better than colder climates but I know it was over 20. We'll call this one 21.
Idk
1 day ago
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#27157
Yes, pollock are considered a cold-water fish, meaning they thrive in cold water environments and are most commonly found in the northern oceans, particularly in the Bering Sea where they prefer water temperatures near freezing.Â
I don’t out on winter clothes until -15
1 day ago
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#27160
Besides low temperature there's something called wind-chill ...
but the obviously silly theme being pushed by the deniers here is to pretend that global warming is okay because global cooling would be worse.
In doing so - they don't realize they're conceding that global warming is going on.
But they have a cycle of tactics.
Like pretending its about averages.
The latest stupidity by them here seems to be to pretend that since most of the world's people live in warmer climates that 'warming' must be 'okay'.
Most of the people in the world live within three hours plane ride of Hong Kong ...
which has been returned to China.
Does that mean that China and India and Indonesia and the other heavily populated countries in the circle are 'benefiting from the warming'?
Short answer: No.